Savage Axis II Precision .223 bolt action.

Hello all,
So I just ordered a Savage Axis II Precision in .223 (#57549) from Sportsman's Warehouse today(item #1628918).
I could have sworn the specs showed it to be a 1:7 twist. I went to check the status of my
order and now it says its a 1:9 twist. Savage's website says it 1:7.
I also ordered some Monster Match 69gr. HPBT bullets from Midsouthshooterssupply to feed
this rifle.

Okay so here's all the info I can provide to help those helping me.
I have 3 powders to choose from: Hodgdon BL-C(2)
Hodgdon H335
Accurate 2460
Bullets: 77gr. SMK's
69gr. Monster Match
Rifle: Savage Axis II Precision (#57549)

My questions are as follows.
1. Does anyone know for sure what the true twist rate of this rifle is?
2. With the above listed powders and bullets, what and how much powder charge should I be using?

All the reloading manuals/info I have is either for an AR15 (which I have, 1:7) or a bolt action with a 1:12.
Nothing for a .223 with a 1:7.

Thank you in advance for any and all advice/suggestions.

It’s 1.7 twist. 1:9 was not an option in the Axis II Precision. All three powders will work. BLC-2 is my personal favorite for 223/5.56. Between those two bullets, the 77 Match Kings are the winner imo. But the 69gr pills will shoot great with a worked up load. It’s 223. Super easy, very forgiving and incredibly versatile. Honestly why I don’t understand all these fad calibers in the AR. But I digress. 223 is one of my MUST HAVE cartridges.


It’s hard to find exact info on specific bullet/powder load charges which aren’t published. And for good reason! KABOOM! I can tell you the H335 & 2460 are closer in burn rate, a good bit faster than BLC-2. Not the best for heavy pills. I don’t think either is great for the 77’s, but the BLC-2 is fine. All three powders are ok with the 69gr’s. Looking at something like 20gr starting loads with the 335 & 2460, & maybe 22gr starting loads with the BLC-2. Maybe a little more on either, but always good to start low & work up. When you start way low, you are safe AND, it affords you the full range of each powder for a given weight bullet.

One good thing to do, gives you a good fall back on, is studying powder burn rate charts. Like this one for instance: https://loaddata.com/Article/BurnRat...-Chart-NEW/159

So, as you’ll see in the chart, H335 & 2460 are close in burn rate to H4895. While loads in 335 & 2460 are difficult to come by, many, MANY people use H4895.. Because these powders have similar burn rate speeds, it’s safe to use the starting loads of one for the other. Note that I said Starting load. While the powders have similar burn rate “speed”, they can & will have very different burn rate characteristics. Which means it’s not wise to swap MAX charges just because they share like burn rates. Stick with starting charges fir unfamiliar powders & learn the powder’s characteristics through charge weights through the range.

My little Axis in .223 is addicted to Varget and 77gn SMK's. Tried BLC2 a long time ago with 69SMK's and it did well.

FWIW the 1-9 twist stabilizes the 77gn SMK very well at 2800fps

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

One good thing to do, gives you a good fall back on, is studying powder burn rate charts. Like this one for instance: https://loaddata.com/Article/BurnRat...-Chart-NEW/159

So, as you’ll see in the chart, H335 & 2460 are close in burn rate to H4895. While loads in 335 & 2460 are difficult to come by, many, MANY people use H4895.. Because these powders have similar burn rate speeds, it’s safe to use the starting loads of one for the other. Note that I said Starting load. While the powders have similar burn rate “speed”, they can & will have very different burn rate characteristics. Which means it’s not wise to swap MAX charges just because they share like burn rates. Stick with starting charges fir unfamiliar powders & learn the powder’s characteristics through charge weights through the range.

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Thank you for replying.
I have a copy of the chart you posted as well as about a half dozen of others.
I have developed loads using all 3 powders for my AR and I'm pleasantly
surprised that all 3 have done quite well, with BL-C(2) being my powder of choice.
My loads have been based off of data that applies to a 5.56 which is a higher pressure
than for a .223.
This new rifle is chambered strictly for .223 so any of the loads I've used for my AR are too
high, right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by charlie b

My little Axis in .223 is addicted to Varget and 77gn SMK's. Tried BLC2 a long time ago with 69SMK's and it did well.

FWIW the 1-9 twist stabilizes the 77gn SMK very well at 2800fps

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Thanks for replying

If I could find Varget without giving up my other kidney I would get some right away.
In my neck of the woods Varget has become unobtainium along with LRP's.

Well according to another reply, my rifle is a 1:7 so...

Varget is good stuff! I have a soft spot for BLC-2 though. A bunch of years ago, when 223 was the only thing I was reloading, I had a chance to equip a Serviceman I care about, a 1st Gen PMAG loaded with some of my own hand rolls. The loads were Moly’d 60gr V-Max pills over 27gr of BLC-2 & BR-4 primers. I had been using these loads for some time. Shooting side by side compared to standard m855 Green Tips, my reloads were a step up in PEW-PEY’ity! Only minor pressure signs....slightly flattened primers. On my compadre’s return, I was informed that all 30 hand loads were indeed used in a fire fight. I can only hope to have pride in knowing that maybe, just maybe one of the rounds I hand loaded helped to safeguard American lives.

As for twist rate, 1:7 & 1:9 both work with 77gr. For the 1:9, the 75-77gr pills are at the very end of its stabilization ability. 80gr are too long for 1:9. Given a choice, I’d rather 1:7 or 1:8 for the 77gr, but it’s proven fact many, many shooters do just fine with 1:9. It’s the same going the other way. 1:7 works fine with the lighter 55gr & even 50gr! But given a choice, I’d rather 1:9 or 1:8 for bullets of this weight & length.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

Varget is good stuff! I have a soft spot for BLC-2 though. A bunch of years ago, when 223 was the only thing I was reloading, I had a chance to equip a Serviceman I care about, a 1st Gen PMAG loaded with some of my own hand rolls. The loads were Moly’d 60gr V-Max pills over 27gr of BLC-2 & BR-4 primers. I had been using these loads for some time. Shooting side by side compared to standard m855 Green Tips, my reloads were a step up in PEW-PEY’ity! Only minor pressure signs....slightly flattened primers. On my compadre’s return, I was informed that all 30 hand loads were indeed used in a fire fight. I can only hope to have pride in knowing that maybe, just maybe one of the rounds I hand loaded helped to safeguard American lives.

As for twist rate, 1:7 & 1:9 both work with 77gr. For the 1:9, the 75-77gr pills are at the very end of its stabilization ability. 80gr are too long for 1:9. Given a choice, I’d rather 1:7 or 1:8 for the 77gr, but it’s proven fact many, many shooters do just fine with 1:9. It’s the same going the other way. 1:7 works fine with the lighter 55gr & even 50gr! But given a choice, I’d rather 1:9 or 1:8 for bullets of this weight & length.

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Yeah, I've never reloaded with Varget. I'm also relatively new to this hobby (3 years) so I got started just as the SHTF.
In my AR15 (16" 1:7) I've shot the standard IMI 62gr green tips, 69gr Frontiers, 77gr Nosler, 75gr Hornady match all of which are
factory rounds. I've shot 77gr SMK's as reloads as well. It seemed to do quite well with the 77gr SMK's using BL-C(2) performing the best
but only by a small margin.
As for this new rifle, I hope it will perform as expected, it's just weird I can't find specific load data for a BA rifle with a 22" barrel and a 1:7 twist.
Just gonna hafta start somewhere and go from there, I guess.
And FWIW, I'm strictly a long range target shooter, 100-1000 yards with 100-400 being the typical range I shoot at in both my .308's and AR and now with this Savage Axis II Precision in .223.

It’s the same reloading. Don’t get so caught up by 223 & 5.56. Has nothing to do with reloading...although many people confuse them to be! They are the same thing. When you read or hear about differences in 223 vs 5.56, it’s of the chamber SAAMI specs ONLY! When it comes to reloading, put those terms out of your mind. Think only about what is reliable & accurate in YOUR rifle. You absolutely CAN use the same ammo in BOTH your AR15 & Savage.... as long as the loads have been worked up and proven to be safe in BOTH rifles. That’s all. That’s why I said, don’t worry about loads you see on the Interwebasis! Start from lower charges & work up, carefully examining the brass in between. Do this for each rifle an you will know which loads work in both.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

It’s the same reloading. Don’t get so caught up by 223 & 5.56. Has nothing to do with reloading...although many people confuse them to be! They are the same thing. When you read or hear about differences in 223 vs 5.56, it’s of the chamber SAAMI specs ONLY! When it comes to reloading, put those terms out of your mind. Think only about what is reliable & accurate in YOUR rifle. You absolutely CAN use the same ammo in BOTH your AR15 & Savage.... as long as the loads have been worked up and proven to be safe in BOTH rifles. That’s all. That’s why I said, don’t worry about loads you see on the Interwebasis! Start from lower charges & work up, carefully examining the brass in between. Do this for each rifle an you will know which loads work in both.

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Thanks for your insight!:redface-new:

As for my other rifles, I've already done the load/seating depth test with them and have found, what I believe to be, the best node for them.
It's this new rifle, which I don't have in my possession yet, that I'm trying to get info for.
Just trying to find a good, safe starting point.

Just to state again, you can use 5.56 loads in your bolt gun. The only real difference that applies to bolt guns is the short throat spec on the .223. From what I can tell my Axis .223 has a longer throat so is not really any different than the 5.56. The steel is more than sufficient for the higher pressure allowed for the 5.56.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by charlie b

Just to state again, you can use 5.56 loads in your bolt gun. The only real difference that applies to bolt guns is the short throat spec on the .223. From what I can tell my Axis .223 has a longer throat so is not really any different than the 5.56. The steel is more than sufficient for the higher pressure allowed for the 5.56.

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Hmm...if you're right then great, problem solved.
Does what you say apply to factory 5.56 ammo being shot through a rifle chambered in .223?
Does what you say apply only to bolt action rifles?
Everything I've read, heard and watched says to not load to 5.56 specs, especially to max charge, if shooting a .223 chambered rifle.
Maybe that's just for AR15's?
I do believe there is some overlap between the two and that'd be great if my rifle ends up liking the "overlap".

5.56 spec is 58kpsi (IIRC) and .223 is something like 55kpsi. Almost any bolt action rifle is capable of more than 60kpsi. The .308 spec is 62kpsi. It is used in the same dia barrel, made of the same material, with a larger hole cut in it.

As I said, the biggest difference is in the SAAMI spec throat for the .223. It is shorter than the 5.56 so if you loaded ammo where the bullet enters the rifling, the pressures will spike. Easy to tell. Just chamber a round and then eject it. Did it freely enter the chamber and eject without any force required? Any marks on the bullet? No? then good to shoot.

Now, if you have an older rifle or one of the small action rifles in .223 you might want to be a bit more careful. But, any Savage 10 series or Axis has a barrel of the proper material and size to handle 5.56 pressures.

Maybe five or so years ago when I was at the range there were a couple of older gents having a problem getting the bolt open on their rifle. It was an older wood stocked model, I don't recall the brand. It was chambered in 223 and there were firing factory Winchester 5.56 ammo in it.
I advised them not to shoot it and to just stick to 223.

Got my rifle in yesterday! It certainly looks the part. Has the MDT chassis. The barrel looks to be very stout, perhaps a bull barrel?
Has a generous amount of copper/carbon fouling in it for a brand new rifle but according to Savage's website they test fire every rifle before shipping it out!
Surprised they don't clean them before shipping. Should I clean it before breaking it in or just leave it the way it is and then clean it after the break-in?

Clean it. Don’t have to go crazy. Get the major carbon and possible manufacturing particles out. The remaining copper could be an advantage. I don’t see breaking in as necessary. Shoot and clean as You normally would.

JMO

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GrenGuy

Clean it. Don’t have to go crazy. Get the major carbon and possible manufacturing particles out. The remaining copper could be an advantage. I don’t see breaking in as necessary. Shoot and clean as You normally would.

JMO

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Thanks for the info.
This will be the first rifle I've bothered to go through the break-in process as described in some of my literature, advice given and YT videos.
Typically I'd just take a rifle to the range, shoot about 200 +/- rounds and then do a medium to medium heavy clean and call it good for every 300
rounds or so. Been doing that way for years and haven't had any issues with any of my rifles.
Go to YT or any forum and if you ask 10 people if break-in is necessary, you'll get 12 different answers!!
The way my grandpa, my father, uncle and brothers have done it was to go and shoot it until it don't shoot straight no mo' that's
the time to clean it!!:redface-new:

Thor, I hope your Axis wants to shoot. My experience using the Sierra 69-grain MK with Varget and with 4895 in a pre-Accutrigger Savage 12BVSS 1:9 was very positive. I have an Axis in 6mm ARC to break in as well.

After two experiences with Savages I would break them in. If not it just takes longer for them to 'smooth out' the rough spots. My Axis didn't settle until almost 400 rounds had been fired. The 12 was more like 200 (stainless barrel), but, I used some bore paste on it as well to try to reduce copper build up.

But, if you are just hunting, then load it and shoot. You'll never get the round count where break in would make a difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Newmexican

Thor, I hope your Axis wants to shoot. My experience using the Sierra 69-grain MK with Varget and with 4895 in a pre-Accutrigger Savage 12BVSS 1:9 was very positive. I have an Axis in 6mm ARC to break in as well.

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Thanks!
I am eager to shoot it but the weather in "my neck of the woods" has been uncooperative or I've turned into Goldilocks and have to have the weather "just right"!:wacko:
(Probably the latter)!

Well I finally got to shoot my new rifle! This Savage Precision .223 rifle shoots AMAZING!!!
Once I got it zeroed, it was shooting 1MOA or better at 100 yards!
I plan on going to a bigger range soon to stretch it out to 600+ yards.
I'm gonna love shooting this rifle...I think:biggrin-new::biggrin-new:

Thor, have you had a chance to shoot it some more? Finding loads it likes? The spring winds here in the NM desert make precision rifle work nearly impossible, so I have not had a chance to wring out the Axis in 6mm ARC.
In .223, I am going to try handloads with the inexpensive Privi Partisan 69-grain HPBTs in my AR ($22 per 100 at Grafs). Have a pinch of Varget stashed away for this.

I have not had the chance to stretch this rifle out beyond 100 yards...yet.
The weather report for 4/18/22 looks to be a good day in my neck of the woods.
Currently all I have shot through it is factory ammo and a handful of my reloads: Hornady 75gr. HPBT Match #8026, Nosler 77gr. custom comp #60011, Federal Gold medal SMK 69 gr. #GM223M and Federal American Eagle FMJBT 62gr #AE.223N.
All have done well, 1 MOA or less at 100 yds. with the Nosler having done the best.
I shot 50 ea. of my reloads using Hornady brass from the above mentioned factory Hornady ammo.
I used BL-C(2), CCI 400 primers, Nosler Match Monster HPBT 69gr. and Sierra Match Kings @ 77grs. HPBT.
Of those 2 the 77gr. SMK's did outstanding!!!
This is a Savage Precision Rifle model in bolt action .223 with a 20" barrel and MDT chassis. I have not modified it in any way other
than put a decent scope on it along with a bipod.

LOL another 77gn SMK convert! And, yes, they like to be shot out to 600yd :)