new barrel/cartridge or buy componets?

Posted this in the help me decide forum and more I think of it, it's better suited here. sorry for the DP.

Hello All, I'm on the fence as to my next purchase. before the Hilary nonsense put me into panic buying mode of potential ban items, plus the 3 stamps I bought because of 41P. My plan was to buy a 6brx barrel throated and twisted for 105 amax's as my economy long range toy. now i'm in a toss up as to which way to go.

Here are the things running through my head. Keep in mind this is purely my new era of plinking (long range shooting) I have easy access to 950yds(10min drive) a 1200yd spot about 15min out and scouting for a 1 mile spot.

Option 1. is stick to the 6brx plan but this would be the most costly as I'd have to buy brass (lapua= buy once cry once) the barrel, dies, and bullets (I have a decent amount of varget and 8208xbr to get me started)

Option 2. is a .223AI barrel throated and twisted for 75-80 hornadys maybe even try the 90vld's. This wouldn't cost as much to get into as all i'd need is the barrel, a body die and eventually some bullets (have a box of 75 amax's and 4-500 80 nosler CC's) plus 8208xbr

Option 3. is keep shooting my .308 and buy powder, primers, and bullets(down to my last ~350 bullets and 5-600 br2's). with all these new high bc bullets coming out this isn't sounding like a bad idea. I was thinking of buying a box or two of the warner flat line 180's and transfer my barrel into a spare long action I have. Then buy some more pp2000mr to launch them for when shooting beyond 1000yds. currently I'm finishing up a box of 208 a-max's that fill that role.


I'd like to hear any insight or advice. Thank You, George

If your 308win barrel has less than 1500 rounds through it I would keep shooting it with the long and heavy high bc heads. I found the 208amax/eldm to worked very nicely in my brothers last 308win. He was getting almost 2,500fps from a 24" stick with room to spare for more speed.

I prefer going long with out spending much money, and the 308 is a good cartridge to learn the wind and long range dope since you get longer barrel life than other LR cartridges. Thus giving you more time to learn with out spending more money.

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Originally Posted by Zero333

If your 308win barrel has less than 1500 rounds through it I would keep shooting it with the long and heavy high bc heads. I found the 208amax/eldm to worked very nicely in my brothers last 308win. He was getting almost 2,500fps from a 24" stick with room to spare for more speed.

I prefer going long with out spending much money, and the 308 is a good cartridge to learn the wind and long range dope since you get longer barrel life than other LR cartridges. Thus giving you more time to learn with out spending more money.

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I don't keep an exact round count on my rifles yet but it's easily under 500. I actually get the 208 amax(haven't played with the eldm yet) up to 2525ft/sec with room for more speed loaded long in my 18.5" and they really help in the wind at the expense of a little bruising. lol

I aquired a PTG long action DBM in trade recently and I was going to have a 300 win spun up for it. but I don't think I'm ready for that much horsepower. My form 1's should be clearing just after the new year and i'll finally have a suppressor which will help with recoil and make the shooting experience much that more enjoyable. with that and all of these BC improvements like the hornady eldm line, the nosler rdf's, berger's hybrids, and the crazy high bc warner flat lines (i'd only use those for ELR shooting to try and cheat my way to a mile)

so I'm definitly considering running the .308 barrel on a spare long action I have with the DBM running 3"+ coal with 208 hornady's or I also want to try the 215 bergers. I'm happy with the 168 amax's out to a grand if the wind is steady or calm but will try the 168 eldm as my sub 1000yd load.

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Originally Posted by Zero333

If your 308win barrel has less than 1500 rounds through it I would keep shooting it with the long and heavy high bc heads. I found the 208amax/eldm to worked very nicely in my brothers last 308win. He was getting almost 2,500fps from a 24" stick with room to spare for more speed.

I prefer going long with out spending much money, and the 308 is a good cartridge to learn the wind and long range dope since you get longer barrel life than other LR cartridges. Thus giving you more time to learn with out spending more money.

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just curious why you say if less than 1500 rounds?


TO THE OP...
why not build a 6XC, 6creedmoor or something along those lines so you dont need to fire form brass? if you go with a 6mm...also brass for the 6mm CM is pretty cheap and if you want better brass you can neck down the nosler 6.5mm CM or lapua will soon be hitting the market....run a 7.5 twist and shoot heavy bullets.
or build a 6.5mm...260 rem or a 6.5 creedmoor run an 8 twist and shoot 140+ grain bullets...either one will out preform a 308...as far as the warner flat line bullets go...they come with big numbers and a big price to match...for price of 500 198s you can buy a 1000 6 or 6.5 bullets and have money left for a couple of pounds of powder and some primers.

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Originally Posted by LongRange

just curious why you say if less than 1500 rounds?


TO THE OP...
why not build a 6XC, 6creedmoor or something along those lines so you dont need to fire form brass? if you go with a 6mm...also brass for the 6mm CM is pretty cheap and if you want better brass you can neck down the nosler 6.5mm CM or lapua will soon be hitting the market....run a 7.5 twist and shoot heavy bullets.
or build a 6.5mm...260 rem or a 6.5 creedmoor run an 8 twist and shoot 140+ grain bullets...either one will out preform a 308...as far as the warner flat line bullets go...they come with big numbers and a big price to match...for price of 500 198s you can buy a 1000 6 or 6.5 bullets and have money left for a couple of pounds of powder and some primers.

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I considered a .243ai, 6 creedmoor and 6x47 lapua but the barrel life on alot of those wildcats diminishes considerably vs a standard 6br or even the 6brx, dasher, ect.... I don't shoot competitions nor do I plan to any time soon.

I was also boner'd out on getting a 6.5, but being the cheap arse I am there is little to no savings over a .308 and again you have half the barrel life of a .308.

another thing I didn't mention was I like my handy short barrels. my .308 is 18.5" and I love it, i've hunted with it, and shoot it long range for fun. the above cartridges suffer greatly starting at 24" and below. I personally want no more than a 20" barrel as I do have suppressor stamps inbound and I don't want a mile long rig with the suppressor attached.

the above cartridges also have 1 thing in common. They love H4350 and I haven't seen h4350 in years out here (sold a .260 barrel because of that 3 years ago) the 6br and it's wildcats love powers like varget and 8208xbr which I keep on hand and can readily replace it when needed.

No doubt the warner flat lines come at a premium, not going to deny that one bit. but I have no intentions on shooting them regularly if I ever go down that path. they would be strictly used past 1400yds and I'm a long ways away from shooting that far. I think you'd be suprised if you run the #'s of my 208 a-max at 2525 vs a 6.5 creedmoor with 140's. i'm giving up nothing to the 6.5's other than recoil which I will admit is pretty fierce. and thats with a 5.5" shorter barrel which with my suppressor will be roughly the same length as a 24" barrel.

That's why i'm having such a hard time with this. I want to try something new but the startup costs of a new setup could = alot of shooting with what I have.

Here are my thoughts on only the three options you listed.

1) So i honestly don't know anything about this cartridge, but here is practical info. First the cases. Despite what ANY online God tells you, this is 100% marketing business. Someone who begins to tell you something about how consistent Lapua is, immediately had no big data, and goes to strength. But again has no data to back it up. Well, we do have a Pressure Trace, and data. Lapua officially specs brass to 130% of that cartridges SAAMI/CIP MAP. Hornady as an example, specs to 125%. So if someone with a slogan to justify, tells you to "buy once, cry once"; make sure they know what they are talking about. Within SAAMI MAP, there is no practical life difference. Within the SAME amount of over pressure, there is no difference.
Moving on, this option is cheaper for bullets than your 308, and I would suspect less powder.
Are you sure this is the expensive route?

2) Several years ago part of my group of friends got into the distance with 223's game. We had fun and it is certainly possible. But beyond 1k the wind is a significant issue. If you live in windy country, this isn't a great idea. It if you really don't shoot that far that often, who cares.

3) My 308 that I shoot to a mile with, is starting to open up a tad, but she's well beyond 5,000 rounds; and want treated nice in the first half of its life. 308 bullets will be the most expensive of the cartridges listed.
Now the magical FlatLine bullets:
I did but them there moment they came out, and we did a bunch of pressure trace work with them. When they were first released, we(the public) were told that they can be pushed faster with less pressure. That in fact is a flat lie, a 150gr prohunter has A MUCH larger bearing surface area. Yet with the same case, load, and equal jump to lands, the pressures are statistically identical. Next we were told to not use slower powders like CFE. Yet again categorically false. We were told that the alloy used won't play well with regular fouling, again.... I think you get the idea.

So what is true about them? It is true that they absolutely will not cross trans-sonic safely. It is true that they have a stellar BC number.
If you believe in science and facts, then they can't be shot at higher velocities without higher pressures. Meaning that the whole notion about using "standard twists" is in question.
I'm not saying you shouldn't try them, or that they won't shoot well for you. I'm saying when any companies marketing department gets to run wild, and starts spewing garbage like "Just the tip, I promise". That company's claims sound be taken as seriously as the promise about just the tip......

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Originally Posted by LongRange

just curious why you say if less than 1500 rounds?

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I figure 1,500 rounds in a 308win is 1/3rd of accurate barrel life, so plenty left to play with.

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Originally Posted by darkker

Here are my thoughts on only the three options you listed.

1) So i honestly don't know anything about this cartridge, but here is practical info. First the cases. Despite what ANY online God tells you, this is 100% marketing business. Someone who begins to tell you something about how consistent Lapua is, immediately had no big data, and goes to strength. But again has no data to back it up. Well, we do have a Pressure Trace, and data. Lapua officially specs brass to 130% of that cartridges SAAMI/CIP MAP. Hornady as an example, specs to 125%. So if someone with a slogan to justify, tells you to "buy once, cry once"; make sure they know what they are talking about. Within SAAMI MAP, there is no practical life difference. Within the SAME amount of over pressure, there is no difference.
Moving on, this option is cheaper for bullets than your 308, and I would suspect less powder.
Are you sure this is the expensive route?

2) Several years ago part of my group of friends got into the distance with 223's game. We had fun and it is certainly possible. But beyond 1k the wind is a significant issue. If you live in windy country, this isn't a great idea. It if you really don't shoot that far that often, who cares.

3) My 308 that I shoot to a mile with, is starting to open up a tad, but she's well beyond 5,000 rounds; and want treated nice in the first half of its life. 308 bullets will be the most expensive of the cartridges listed.
Now the magical FlatLine bullets:
I did but them there moment they came out, and we did a bunch of pressure trace work with them. When they were first released, we(the public) were told that they can be pushed faster with less pressure. That in fact is a flat lie, a 150gr prohunter has A MUCH larger bearing surface area. Yet with the same case, load, and equal jump to lands, the pressures are statistically identical. Next we were told to not use slower powders like CFE. Yet again categorically false. We were told that the alloy used won't play well with regular fouling, again.... I think you get the idea.

So what is true about them? It is true that they absolutely will not cross trans-sonic safely. It is true that they have a stellar BC number.
If you believe in science and facts, then they can't be shot at higher velocities without higher pressures. Meaning that the whole notion about using "standard twists" is in question.
I'm not saying you shouldn't try them, or that they won't shoot well for you. I'm saying when any companies marketing department gets to run wild, and starts spewing garbage like "Just the tip, I promise". That company's claims sound be taken as seriously as the promise about just the tip......

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excellent post and what i'm after.

yes option 1. will be the cheapest to shoot(bullets are easily a dime cheaper) and does use 1/3 less powder which is what attracted me to the cartridge. not to mention I hear there very soft shooters and barrel life of over 3000 rounds is quite the norm. all pro's. and on paper it should do well out to 1200 beating my 168gr .308 load by a significant margin. I'm no band wagoner by any means so as far as brass is concerned I just go based off what reviews I've read. I hear that the big 3 generally only last 6-8 firings(losing the primer pockets generally) where the lapua is touted to last 10-15 if cared for. meaning 2 boxes of brass would roughly last the life of the barrel. long term this would likely cost less to shoot but the startup costs are a little of a hard pill to swallow as my gun funds are limited and were depleted over the last 6 months.

the 223ai brings nothing to the table over the .308 except less recoil and cheaper cost of shooting like you stated within 1000yds.

good info on the flatlines, I did not know about their transonic issue. good to know. Seem's I have yet more homework to do. I have yet to try cfe but I have had great results with the 2000mr which is very similar in burn speed and likely the powder i'd try first.

"ss", with Your own words, You have sold Me on staying with the 308! ;-))

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Originally Posted by FW Conch

"ss", with Your own words, You have sold Me on staying with the 308! ;-))

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LoL wasn't my objective but hey if it isn't broke.

Nothing You start up with now, is going to be cheaper than what You already have ;-)

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Originally Posted by squirrel_slayer

I considered a .243ai, 6 creedmoor and 6x47 lapua but the barrel life on alot of those wildcats diminishes considerably vs a standard 6br or even the 6brx, dasher, ect.... I don't shoot competitions nor do I plan to any time soon.

I was also boner'd out on getting a 6.5, but being the cheap arse I am there is little to no savings over a .308 and again you have half the barrel life of a .308.

another thing I didn't mention was I like my handy short barrels. my .308 is 18.5" and I love it, i've hunted with it, and shoot it long range for fun. the above cartridges suffer greatly starting at 24" and below. I personally want no more than a 20" barrel as I do have suppressor stamps inbound and I don't want a mile long rig with the suppressor attached.

the above cartridges also have 1 thing in common. They love H4350 and I haven't seen h4350 in years out here (sold a .260 barrel because of that 3 years ago) the 6br and it's wildcats love powers like varget and 8208xbr which I keep on hand and can readily replace it when needed.

No doubt the warner flat lines come at a premium, not going to deny that one bit. but I have no intentions on shooting them regularly if I ever go down that path. they would be strictly used past 1400yds and I'm a long ways away from shooting that far. I think you'd be suprised if you run the #'s of my 208 a-max at 2525 vs a 6.5 creedmoor with 140's. i'm giving up nothing to the 6.5's other than recoil which I will admit is pretty fierce. and thats with a 5.5" shorter barrel which with my suppressor will be roughly the same length as a 24" barrel.

That's why i'm having such a hard time with this. I want to try something new but the startup costs of a new setup could = alot of shooting with what I have.

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if your not looking for bench rest accuracy a 6.5 will go 3000 rounds pretty easily...im shooting a 6CM right now and have 1240 rounds through it and am going to shoot it until its at about 1moa and will report back when its done.

now as far as powders go in a 6.5mm...ive shot just about every powder made in a 260 rem and just about everyone was very accurate....RL-17,H4831,IMR4350 and RL-19 were all as accurate as H4350 and most of the rest of the powders were accurate enough that i did pretty well with them...i wouldnt worry to much about powder.
as far as barrel life goes...how much do you actually shoot? more than 3000 rounds per year? you have to look at barrels as consumables just like the rest of the components.

and you give up quite a bit more than i think you realize running the 208s in a 308...i didnt spend a bunch of time but did run some quick numbers on JBM and at 1400yds a 208g Amax at 2525 is 57moa...a 140g berger hybrid at 2850 is 43.2moa and a 130g berger hybrid at 3050fps is 40.2moa.

as far as short barrel 6.5s suffering at 24" and less...my second to last 260 barrel was a 24" krieger plain jane 260rem shooting 130g berger hybrids at 3050fps with RL-17 and was stupid accurate...but i guess if money is an issue then your best bet would be to stick with the 308.

wasnt thinking yesterday but heres a 6CM shooting a 115g DTAC at 3020FPS...these numbers are good as ive shot this out to 1320yds...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...1479644167.png

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Originally Posted by Zero333

I figure 1,500 rounds in a 308win is 1/3rd of accurate barrel life, so plenty left to play with.

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Gotcha.


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Originally Posted by squirrel_slayer

. I'm no band wagoner by any means so as far as brass is concerned I just go based off what reviews I've read. I hear that the big 3 generally only last 6-8 firings(losing the primer pockets generally) where the lapua is touted to last 10-15 if cared for.

good info on the flatlines, I did not know about their transonic issue. good to know.

I have yet to try cfe but I have had great results with the 2000mr which is very similar in burn speed and likely the powder i'd try first.

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If they are only getting that little life, it's because they are horribly over pressure. Most of my original 308 brass which is every possible stamp there is, have over 20 loadings on them, and I refuse to anneal.... Or because they don't let me play with fire:p
In the Creedmoor camp there is/was a ton of bashing on Hornady brass. The first Creedmoor I built has over 2,000 rounds fired, and no significant accuracy loss. Most of that "weak Hornady" brass was loaded 10+ times....

The FlatLine trans-sonic issue is the same as the original 168 issue in the 308. A tail angle and center of gravity Vs. Center of pressure problem, essential guarantees it won't make it. If you keep them supersonic, they are fine with a 10-twist. But you may have to go over-pressure.

CFE in the 308 is a nice powder, I actually prefer the "feel" of the firing event a little better than my favorite, 748.
But Hodgy has had some interesting lot variations in its short life.
Watch your chronograph, if you meet our exceed book velocity you exceeded book pressure; regardless of charge.
If you don't care, that's fine; just understand what is happening.

In a somewhat related note to this. Pressure is exactly why I use Superformance in my Creedmoor. Being exceptionally progressive burning, you can run 10,000 psi less and only lose 50-75 fps.
Here are the traces from our FL testing:
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j8...ps3pazhbys.png
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j8...pst4w0ukh1.png

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Originally Posted by LongRange

if your not looking for bench rest accuracy a 6.5 will go 3000 rounds pretty easily...im shooting a 6CM right now and have 1240 rounds through it and am going to shoot it until its at about 1moa and will report back when its done.

now as far as powders go in a 6.5mm...ive shot just about every powder made in a 260 rem and just about everyone was very accurate....RL-17,H4831,IMR4350 and RL-19 were all as accurate as H4350 and most of the rest of the powders were accurate enough that i did pretty well with them...i wouldnt worry to much about powder.
as far as barrel life goes...how much do you actually shoot? more than 3000 rounds per year? you have to look at barrels as consumables just like the rest of the components.

and you give up quite a bit more than i think you realize running the 208s in a 308...i didnt spend a bunch of time but did run some quick numbers on JBM and at 1400yds a 208g Amax at 2525 is 57moa...a 140g berger hybrid at 2850 is 43.2moa and a 130g berger hybrid at 3050fps is 40.2moa.

as far as short barrel 6.5s suffering at 24" and less...my second to last 260 barrel was a 24" krieger plain jane 260rem shooting 130g berger hybrids at 3050fps with RL-17 and was stupid accurate...but i guess if money is an issue then your best bet would be to stick with the 308.

wasnt thinking yesterday but heres a 6CM shooting a 115g DTAC at 3020FPS...these numbers are good as ive shot this out to 1320yds...

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...1479644167.png

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Those 6mm #'s are pretty impressive. have you tried the new 115 dtac "rbt"? how is the feeback on steel/ /splashes at 1320?

the 6mm numbers i posted are the RBT DTACs...i can clearly see impacts on steel as well as splash in dry dirt...wet dirt you can see splash as long as its cool out...keep in mind im looking through a gen2 vortex...you can also hear the impact on steel if your muffs are turned up and no other noises.

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Originally Posted by LongRange

the 6mm numbers i posted are the RBT DTACs...i can clearly see impacts on steel as well as splash in dry dirt...wet dirt you can see splash as long as its cool out...keep in mind im looking through a gen2 vortex...you can also hear the impact on steel if your muffs are turned up and no other noises.

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hmm.......had to go throw a wrench in the works didn't you ;)
how long is your barrel? what powder did you use?

26"...H4350 but don't get all hung up on powder as I've said above there's a lot of powders that will work just as well...LoneWolf is shooting IMR4451 in his 6mm CM same brass bullets and primers as I am and is doing very well in his matches.

Just an FYI...I shot a 260 for about 7yrs and just switched to the 6CM...I've shot 1240 rounds in about 4-5 months and I'm impressed enough with the 6mm that I've sold off all of my 260 stuff and wish Ida made the change a long time ago.


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Originally Posted by LongRange

26"...H4350 but don't get all hung up on powder as I've said above there's a lot of powders that will work just as well...LoneWolf is shooting IMR4451 in his 6mm CM same brass bullets and primers as I am and is doing very well in his matches.

Just an FYI...I shot a 260 for about 7yrs and just switched to the 6CM...I've shot 1240 rounds in about 4-5 months and I'm impressed enough with the 6mm that I've sold off all of my 260 stuff and wish Ida made the change a long time ago.


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I bet. the 6mm's have always appealed to me. my first centerfire rifle was actually a .243 savage and I played with the 105 amax's and I liked them alot. but back then 400yds was a long shot. lol

why the 6mm CM over say a 6x47 lapua or 6xc? 26" tube with that velocity it must be a pretty mild load, which would explain your long brass life.

well there were several reasons...and i dont remember the exact numbers...but the 6x47 and the 6XC were a little under powered...and not that its a huge difference but i like having the extra horse power there if i decide to use it...ive also read that a lotta ppl have had accuracy issues with the 6x47 and i dont know how true that really is but it was enough to sway my decision just a little.
ultimately it boiled down to the price of brass...6CM brass is 68c the xc and 47 are about a $1+ or - a little...as far as the load im shooting goes yeah i could run it up another 100fps or so with the 115s and i could shoot the 105g class at around 3200 or so but why? 3120 would be 100fps faster than my speed now with the 115s and only gains me 1moa or 10" at 1000yds...the cost of that 10" is brass,barrel life,recoil and the biggest down side would be inconsistent accuracy.

at 3020fps my 850yd cold bore shot is about 90%...ive shot this load from 95-100degs down to 38-40degs and my drops dont change enough to even make an adjustment out to 1000yds and seating depth dont seem to matter either...from .020 to .038 off the lands it shoots the same.

My two cents -
If your .308 barrel shoots good groups and is in otherwise good shape, use it. The big struggle is to learn to read wind. You will be forced to do that with a .308. The .308 can be made to shoot well at that distance - ask any Palma shooter. Don't worry so much about super bullets. There are several good makers. Find a good bullet that groups in the rifle and learn to make it shoot.
The .223 is just going to be painful at much past 600 yards. Yes, it can be done, but it's tough to keep those bullets moving fast enough to stay supersonic and fight the wind.
Sorry if this offends anyone - I'm just passing along what I observed as I learned to shoot a .308 Palma gun.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by jerry shaw

My two cents -
If your .308 barrel shoots good groups and is in otherwise good shape, use it. The big struggle is to learn to read wind. You will be forced to do that with a .308. The .308 can be made to shoot well at that distance - ask any Palma shooter. Don't worry so much about super bullets. There are several good makers. Find a good bullet that groups in the rifle and learn to make it shoot.
The .223 is just going to be painful at much past 600 yards. Yes, it can be done, but it's tough to keep those bullets moving fast enough to stay supersonic and fight the wind.
Sorry if this offends anyone - I'm just passing along what I observed as I learned to shoot a .308 Palma gun.

Good luck.

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Thanks for the advice. I've pretty much ruled out the .223ai. I'm likely going to put my .308 barrel on a long action I picked up that I was intending on building a 300 win mag on but I'm not ready for that much gun yet. I already find myself flinching after 50-60 rounds of .308 let alone a bruiser like a 300WM.

Longrange has me back on a 6mm but just muddy'd the waters with his 6 creedmoor! lol the 6br,6brx,dasher,ect setup for the heavies would be nice as they use the same powders that I already stock, but they have to be run hard where as the next class up 6x47 lapua, 6 creedmoor, 6xc will drive the same bullet a few 100ft/sec faster and like in longrange's case you could scale back and prolong case life(something that didn't cross my mind being a hotrodder by heart :rockon: )

my .308 barrel shoots very well (Jim/Apache Gun Works did a great job!). I had two loads with 155tmk's that If I sat down and practiced i'm sure it would be a one hole gun (I always pulled the 3rd shot) however i'm ditching the tmk's and sticking with the 168 amax's as I couldn't get enough velocity to justify the cost increase of the tmk's. my 168 amax load is still an honest 1/2moa load 3/4 on a bad day. My 208amax load is just under MOA but I went after the lower ES/SD as I only shoot it beyond 600yds. I need to put a brake on it as i'm sure that would help me concentrate especially after shooting alot of rounds.

lapua brass is out now for the creedmoor...also nosler and norma both already have creedmoor brass on the market plus its pretty easy to make CM brass from 22/250 and 243 brass...that said if you want fast go with any of the larger case capacity 6mms and run 105g bergers or 107g SMKs out of an 8 twist with RL-17 and ill bet you could get up around 3200-3300fps...but again why its not gaining you enough to really make it worth running it that hard other than telling ppl "im running my 6mm at xxxxfps"