MOA factory ammo vrs way better than MOA reloads

If a rifle is MOA with factory ammo,now if we just weigh the powder and make it all identical, shouldn't we be getting better than factory ammo MOA? I have had trouble of late getting MOA from reloads. I been over by 1/4 at 100 yrds {1 in and a 1/4} and getting frustrated. Factory ammo is not very consistent as for powder charges but still getting MOA. Whats the deal with that? I am trimming cases,deburring inside flash hole,primer pocket uniforming,exact same powder charges and not getting MOA on a consistent bases. Thanks, Dan

Have you worked up loads? Tried different bullets? Tried different powders? Tried different primers? Just a few suggestions.

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Originally Posted by richhelton

Have you worked up loads? Tried different bullets? Tried different powders? Tried different primers? Just a few suggestions.

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So factory ammo is inconsistent and shoots moa and when one makes very consistent loads cant get moa. That is my gripe. Its just doesn't add up.Maybe I should think that factory brass and bullets are the way to load for factory firearms.And other ,sierra ,berger,ect are for custome made barrels. Cause that is the way it is looking to me in this reload hobby. A friend of mine bought rem 55 gr HP with the grooves around the base of the bullet, And he uses reg bras,just cleans the pockets and length the cartridges and he is getting .5 groups from his reloads. I am buying bergers,nosler and sierra and grouping not doing well.I get good groups with sierra 1365 and IMR 4064 once in awhile,As if I reload and its 90 out then go shoot its fine. It drops down 15 degrees and its like WTH happened to my groups. Thanks all,Dan

You never know until you try. Every barrel is different, and a load that shoots lights out in my barrel may work poorly in yours. There are a lot of factors that can affect consistency and accuracy.

You mentioned your buddy's 55gn. In 223 I have found that my Service Rifle AR15 likes Varget and Reloder 15 almost equally as well. Tried other powders are they didn't seem to shoot as well. Some powders work better with certain calibers and bullets. What round are you reloading and shooting?

Generally a factory advertised MOA rifle is tested with and shoots MOA with factory ammo. My savage was tested at the factory with 69 SMKs. They shoot less than MOA.
Now if I shoot 53 Hornady Superformance it open up some, but the 55 vmax still does MOA or less. The difference is with a reload developed, tested, and validated it will be better at 100yds some better at 300 yds and much better at 400+ yds than factory.

Think of this... factory ammo shoots 3/4"@100yds. 3" @300 and 4"@400yds.

When you reload you can make sure the powder is exactly the same in all rounds(this prevents verticle stringing of the group at distance)and the bullet is set off the lands of YOUR rifle rather than a SAAMI spec. for all manufactured rifles.

All of the reloading and load developement for your rifle will find the best "node" and allow a more tuned setup.

So after getting the correct custom load for the sweet spot of your rifle, action etc. you may be .560"@100yds, 1.717"@300yds and 2.802"@400yds. I am referring to a tactical type action not a full blown custom BR action.

I have shot many "factory" or "manufactured" rounds that were extremely accurate and consistant, but were specialty ammo and were not available to civilians.

Regards

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Originally Posted by leo158

If a rifle is MOA with factory ammo,now if we just weigh the powder and make it all identical, shouldn't we be getting better than factory ammo MOA? I have had trouble of late getting MOA from reloads. I been over by 1/4 at 100 yrds {1 in and a 1/4} and getting frustrated. Factory ammo is not very consistent as for powder charges but still getting MOA. Whats the deal with that? I am trimming cases,deburring inside flash hole,primer pocket uniforming,exact same powder charges and not getting MOA on a consistent bases. Thanks, Dan

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What factory ammo and what did you try in your reloads? Did you run your ammo over a chrony?

Yhea without a chrony you are comparing apples and oranges. Even with a chrony you need to know if you are using a fast or slow burning powder. Reloading is NOT as simple to get "right" as people think it is. It takes time and patience and testing. Sure you can stuff bullet A in case C and say it is the "same" as factory, but it isn't.

You can prep and weigh eveything to be identical, but unless it is a load the rifle likes you will just have a bunch of the same rounds that won't group. Have you let your buddy that shoots small groups try shooting your rifle with your reloads to see what results he gets?

Factory ammo is generally loaded to SAAMI specifications for Cartridge Overall length. I would assume most manufacturers build their magazines to accept these SAAMI sized rounds. Because most of these commercially manufactured cartridges are manufactured to SAAMI sspecifications, I would speculate that most of these commercial bullets are seated to "jump" about .020 to.040 to the lands.

I would add this to the fine recommendations of richhelton and others: Try different bullet seating depths to more closely match the large "jump" in commercial ammo. Start with a "jump" of about .035" and gradually decrease the "jump" in .005" increments until you find the sweet spot for that load. Add this practice to the fine tuning of your loaded rounds. You should notice an immediate difference in grouping.

Good luck.

What are you loading for, and what's your recipe?

What books on reloading have you read, if any? If you haven't already done so I highly recommend you acquire and read something like "The ABCs of Reloading". It will give you a good, solid grounding in the principles governing the activity, and the factors that affect the performance of your loads (there's a lot more to it than just consistent powder charging).

Little things that can make big differences:
Type / brand / age of case
amount of charge
type / brand of powder
seating depth
neck tension
crimping
primer
type / brand of bullet

And these are just the obvious things. There's a whole 'nother list that has to do with your shooting technique, weather, cleanliness of barrel.... the list goes on.
Start with the basics. Make sure each & every cartridge is as identical to the next as you're capable of. Then change one thing only (ie - seating depth) and check results. After you've exhausted every possibility, try a different bullet or powder. Some rifles like fast powders, some hate them.

I honestly believe if you're trying to duplicate factory ammo, you're wasting time & resourses. You have no way to tell what propellant they use or if it's a mixture, most factory ammo is crimped which can be duplicated, just not the same pressure / tension or type of crimp. The list continues. This is somewhat an exact science. Exact to your rifle only.
It can drive you batty so it's best to have a routine to follow. It'll lessen the chance of screwing up.

Good luck & ask questions, then read. After you're done reading, read some more. Continue to read until you've memorized what you've read. Then, get a new book & continue to read.
Reloading can be frustrating but it can also be incredibly rewarding. Have a go at it & don't forget to ask questions & read.
Frank in Fla

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Originally Posted by John_M

I would add this to the fine recommendations of richhelton and others: Try different bullet seating depths to more closely match the large "jump" in commercial ammo. Start with a "jump" of about .035" and gradually decrease the "jump" in .005" increments until you find the sweet spot for that load. Add this practice to the fine tuning of your loaded rounds. You should notice an immediate difference in grouping.

Good luck.

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Agreed. Seating depth makes the most difference with very small changes. I find the best seating depth with a certain bullet first then experiment with powder charges.

Leo,
A lot of good info to get you steered in the right direction.
The thing that was missed is the powder.
Factory ammo isn't weighed, it is measured by volume. With the EXACT SAME volume, weights can vary. This turns lots of folks off, Load density is more important than many realize. Also the deteerants used make-up for the density issue.
Here are some informational reads for you.
http://www.shootingsoftware.com/loadens.htm
http://stevespages.com/powderdensity.html
H

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Originally Posted by leo158

So factory ammo is inconsistent and shoots moa and when one makes very consistent loads cant get moa. That is my gripe. Its just doesn't add up.Maybe I should think that factory brass and bullets are the way to load for factory firearms.And other ,sierra ,berger,ect are for custome made barrels. Cause that is the way it is looking to me in this reload hobby. A friend of mine bought rem 55 gr HP with the grooves around the base of the bullet, And he uses reg bras,just cleans the pockets and length the cartridges and he is getting .5 groups from his reloads. I am buying bergers,nosler and sierra and grouping not doing well.I get good groups with sierra 1365 and IMR 4064 once in awhile,As if I reload and its 90 out then go shoot its fine. It drops down 15 degrees and its like WTH happened to my groups. Thanks all,Dan .

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Well, by "identical charges" I am going to assume you mean they are identical to each other, not to the factory loads....

Anyhow. For your problem with loading at 90 and having poor groups when the temp drops, thats your powder. Some powders are very sensitive to temperature drops. Thats why I only use hodgdon's "extreme" powders, because they are consistent no matter what the temp. I use varget in my hunting rifle, last year I developed my load in the summer, and then shot my deer in the fall, huge temp difference, but the bullet went right where it was supposed too.

As for your groups, have you done a proper load workup? If not you are just shooting in the dark and I'm not surprised you are not getting good groups. You cant just pick a powder weight at random and shoot and expect good groups because "everything is consistent". In my .308 hunting rifle, no matter how "consistant" I am, 43.5gr gives me 1.5-2+" groups, while 43.8gr gives me sub MOA groups.... Every rifle is different.

Here is the difference between factory and handloaded ammo. Factories spend a great deal on money on research to come up with a blend of powders and a charge size that works good in a wide range of rifles. Handloaders spend a great deal of time to find a load that works GREAT in their one rifle.

Just for experimentation, I would chrono the factory stuff and also determine the bullet jump. Then build a load that duplicates the mv and bullet jump of the factory loads, and see if it works.

Do you know for certain the powder in those factory loads is the same you are using? (I don't mean gr count)

Here's a test you can do to see if your reloading methods are good to go...
Take apart ten factory rounds and save all the components, be careful to collect all the powder from every case. If you do not feel comfortable punching out live primers just leave them in and make sure to TAKE OUT your de-capping pin on your sizing die.
Size all the brass, load up the powder (just divide what you recovered by 10), seat the bullets, shoot'em!
How do your "factory reloads" shoot?
If your reloading process is dead on you should see **** near the same results you get from the original factory ammo.
If not, look at things like seating depth and the concentricity of your rounds.

Once you can reproduce factory rounds from factory parts you will know that your reloading methods are sound.

Next load some by the book rounds for your rifle with different bullets, and by the book I mean Lyman's reloading manual. Use charge weights in the middle range. When you find something promising start adjusting the charge weight for that bullet (keeping the same seating depth)... once you have charges dialed in, try seating depth changes.

The key is only chase one thing at at time. Making too many changes at once just muddies the results.

Keep in mind that even a not so great day at the range beats the hell out of a day at the office!!

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Originally Posted by DPmax

Do you know for certain the powder in those factory loads is the same you are using? (I don't mean gr count)

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You can be almost certain that the powder he's using is NOT the same as what is/was in the factory loads.