HELP !!! Please

I have been working with this mod 12 FV 22-250 since June and early on it seemed to prefer 55gr. to 50gr. bullets. So I thought I would try some 60 gr. if I could find them. A friend said he had some 50 gr. Nosler solid base I could have and if they work he had 400 more I could have. I first tried IMR4064, then another lot of 4064 then RL-15 and Win 760 and today IMR 4350. The loads all were the starting loads from 3 different manuls. With the 760 it shot good but when I went up .3 of a gr. it blew the primer on about the 3rd shot. Today I started with 34.5 gr. of Imr 4350 the starting load from the Nosler Reloading Data site. I checked the load on 2 balance beam scales and the cases had been trimmed exact, FL resized. The first shot from a cold barrel seemed good the primer had rounded edges, the 2nd shot also except the primer was a little flatter, the third shot the primer was flat and the bolt was stiff to open, the 4th shot blew the primer,the extractor and locked the bolt up to where I had to take a plastic hammer and drive it open, then use a cleaning rod to bump the case out. It has been doing this with 4 different bullets and the powders I named to different degrees.

I have been loading for 43 years and for about 12 or 14 different 22-250s I have always had 1 or 2. I load for 24 different calibers and have not ever had this happen of fine on the first shot to destroying the case on the 4th shot. also I miked the bullets and they are good. HELP

I will try to post pictures.

You have a huge carbon ring just at the beginning of the rifling. With a tight fit jag/wet patch, does the cleaning rod begin to turn with the rifling as soon as you start to push the patch through the bore from the chamber end? If not, you have carbon/copper buildup.

Or..the headspace is not correct.

Or...the firing pin is protruding too far.

Or.....yer just lucky. :)

The gun has about 200 rounds thru it and has been cleaned with foam cleaners and brass brush Hoppes benchrest also kroil. The cleaning rod starts to turn right away.

Why does it get progressivly worse to such a degree in 4 shots.

The head space is tight I believe I had to reset my die to really spring the press to get it to chamber a new full length sized case.

I have not checked the firing pin. That will be tomorrow.

Thanks dcloco this thing has me about nuts. I have not been able to get pictures to post from Photobucket, still trying.

one other thing to check is your brass. it could be to long with that tight of headspace. look close and see if it has a shiny spot right at the mouth. if so you may need to trim it a little extra. any carbon at all will cause it to build pressure if the chamber is a hair short. that would account for the progressive pressure increase in the 3 or 4 rounds fired. just a thought.

You could also have a short throat in your barrel. My factory bvss 22-250 barrel had a very short throat, it caused me to have to seat my bullets short. Plus I reached max pressure well before "book" max with my handloads.

My McGowen barrel doesn't have that problem at all.

Seems like any of the ideas posted above would have the same results first shot and last. Are you firing them rapid fire? Perhaps a combination on the above ideas and barrel heat. A "warm" load this is heated by barrel heat can become "hot" fairly rapidly. Perhaps try one of the Hodgdon powders that are not affected as much by temp as the ones you listed? Varget for example.
Or, allow a long cooling period between shots.

Just a thought.

I think dcloco's got it right.......

Did those primer pockets look about like this?
[img width=600 height=450]http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h28/elkbane/BlownPrimers.jpg[/img]

I had the same thing in my 22-250 a couple of years ago. I got some help from Walt Berger (I was shooting Berger bullets) and doped it out to layers of carbon and copper in the throat and first few inches of barrel. When he heard it was a 22-250 the first thing he asked me was about my cleaning regimen. I had to get aggressive with the cleaning. TM Solution, Hoppe's Elite and GM TEC for the carbon, then Shooter's Choice Copper Remover and Butch's bore shine for the copper. And the copper/carbon forms in layers, so it takes awhile repeating the process to get it all out. And I thought the barrel was clean before I started.

I followed this with a few patches of JB bore paste to smooth out the first 4" of the rifling. Once it's there, it's stubborn to remove.

The 22-250's can be a little sneaky about pressure - one minute it's fine, then next you're tossing primers.

Mine gave me some warning signs that I didn't pick up on before it started blowing primers. Here's the last target i shot before it started blowing primers.
It went from nice round tight .25-.3" groups to this:
[img width=600 height=450]http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h28/elkbane/BulletTracks.jpg[/img]

Note fair amount of vertical and unexplained horizontal (no wind) plus bullet tracks on target..... Like a dumb a$$, I kept shooting....had to replace a bolt head as pennance......

Elkbane

Elkbane the 4th shot of the last group when it locked the action up looked like those cases of yours except it tore 1/2 the rim off and I had to hammer the bolt up and open with a plastic hammer. I loaded them single shot and the barrel never even got warm. It went from looking normal on the first shot to destroying the last case. The first time it blew a primer I noticed the first 6 inches or so the patch really seemed tight and I cleaned it with a foam cleaner & Hoppes benchrest cleaner and I have been cleaning every 5 or 6 shots since. I can't understand the progressive nature of the pressure rise. Since I first posted this I have talked to a gunsmith friend of mine and the Tech's at Hodgen & told them what I have checked and done so far both seemed to lean toward too tight head space or a short throat. I will say I think this barrel has a tight chamber because when I was chronoing the 50 grain I was getting higher Vel. with a grain to a grain and half less powder than the manuls.

I can't seem to get pictures to post sure am not a computer genius. I really appreciate any help you guys can give. I can email but not post.

Gordon

If the patch is tight for the first few inches of barrel, you almost certainly have built up carbon over copper layering, IMO. I'd attack that first, and you may have to get really agressive - like steel wool imbedded in a nylon brush wet with Kroil so you can reverse it in the bore (don't do this with a brass brush)to loosen the carbon, or Iosso Paste or JB Bore paste. You shouldn't feel a restriction there - maybe a little roughening from firechecking of the lands, but no noticable restriction...... You'll need a good solvent specifically for carbon and another specifically for copper. Clean each throrughly before using the other (don't mix). You're forcing a bullet through a hole that's too small for it to fit through, significantly increasing pressure. Keep at it until you can't feel that restriction anymore. Foreget about the rest of the bore until you get that fixed. I had to do some or all of the above to get mine cleaned out.
Elkbane

Since I cleaned it that first time I don't feel that tightness at all anymore. I did think about trying some 1000 grit valve seating compound on a tight patch but haven't done it yet as it seemed smooth the whole length.

I am about half afraid of shooting it after seeing that last case. I am going to clean as you say some more and try it then, I don't know what else to do.

Thanks again Elkbane, Gordon

[img width=600 height=450]http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt211/BTBookST/100_0182.jpg[/img]

The first shot is in the back and the last is in the front.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bythebook

Since I cleaned it that first time I don't feel that tightness at all anymore. I did think about trying some 1000 grit valve seating compound on a tight patch but haven't done it yet as it seemed smooth the whole length.

I am about half afraid of shooting it after seeing that last case. I am going to clean as you say some more and try it then, I don't know what else to do.

Thanks again Elkbane, Gordon

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If carbon is the problem, there are two things I use to remove it, Iosso bore paste or TEC, GM top engine cleaner. There are actually three areas to watch for carbon buildup, the bore, the freebore and the "gap space", the area from the end of the case mouth to the start of the freebore in the chamber. Its a little tough to get the Iosso into the last two areas whereas the TEC being a liquid it can be swabbed in and allowed to work. A cleaning patch,piece of a rag or a paper towel wrapped around brush works well.

The Iosso can be applied the same way ( patch and brush), pushed in until it conforms to the shape of the chamber then rotated with a drill, powder screwdriver or by hand. It takes a little longer and a bit more work, but cleans the carbon without hurting anything.

Some other products to remove carbon instead of the TEC, Seafoam (NAPA) and the stuff sold at Mercury outboard and Subaru dealers.

Bill

Bill,
Glad you mentioned the Seafoam. I used it this summer on an outboard and also cleaned some carbon with it. They make a spray can version called "seafoam Deep Creep" with a straw type spray tube (like on a WD40 can) and it's pretty handy for directed spray into a chamber........ Works good on the outboard cylinders too - I sprayed some into the spark plug hole and immediately saw carbon falling out the exhaust...rotated the cylinders manually, sprayed some more...more carbon just flowing out..
Elkbane

Thank goodness I ran into this article. Changed from long ogive Bergers to a snubbier Varmint Grenade, worried about ricochet, and had a time trying to get bullets seated to proper oal. Fired a few and experienced the same primer problems. Nylon bristle brush wrapped with steel wool, Kroil, Sweets and elbow grease seem to have corrected the problem. Was using 60gr. Bergers in my 12 bvss for some informal benchrest shooting and put a different stock on it for groundhog shooting come next spring. Switched to 50 gr. Varmint Grenades,different ogive brought out the problem. Worth the twelve bucks already. Quick

Elkbane I have a can of Mercury Marine Tune up is the stuff you were talking about. It is supposed to be run through the engine to remove carbon. Today I used a well worn .20 cal brush and wrapped it with enough 0000 steel wool to make it a snug fit. Then I soaked it with Kroil and scrubbed the barrel, esp. the 10 or so inches in front of the chamber both ways. It does feel a lot smoother now when I get my new extractor spring from Savage I will try it again.

I'd try the Mercury Marine tune stuff anyway. The brushing you gave it probably scoured off the lands really well; the solvent will get the carbon out of the grooves. I have a theory that that's where the real problem is . Then I'd shoot it before I did any more scrubbing. Steel wool is pretty harsh on lands and you can overdo it if you're not careful.

The only reason I use the Seafoam Deep Creep is it's in a aerosol spray can and easier to apply - the standard Seafoam comes in a can that you pour into the tank. I can inundate the whole chamber area with the spray stuff. Don't be afraid to apply liberally. It needs a decent flushing....and time to work.

Let us know how it works out.
ELkbane

This stuff is also aerosol and you have your engine running and spray it in the intake, I use it on my bass boat. I will try it. I have used this 0000 steel wool to finish stocks before it is supposed to be used to smooth the finish before putting the last finish coats on. It is really mild.

Had a Rem 22-250 that I sold to a friend yrs ago, it was a very accurate rifle. After about 5 yrs he called and wanted to sell it back to me. Couldn't pass it up. Took it out and shot it, wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Thought the barrel was shot out. Shot a round in it and left the empty brass in the chamber, filled the entire barrel with Hoppes #9, tapped a bullet in the end to seal it and stuck the gun in the basement for 2 weeks. Took it out dumped out the Hoppes brushed the heck out of it ran some copper cleaner thru it and it shot like a new one.

I have scrubbed this gun with that carbon cleaner several times and then used foam cleaner for copper, and cleaned with Hoppes # 9 Benchrest. I am not getting anything out the last few times the patches come out clean. I haven't had time to shoot it again with Deer season and the Holidays and all. I have talked to 2 different gunsmiths, a tech at Hodgen, and they all say it could be a head space problem. So if when I get a chance to shoot it and it still does this I will check head space and then pull the barrel if the head space checks out.

One other thing, just trying to cover all the bases, maybe you have a case of the dreaded donuts. A small ring of brass that at times forms at the neck-shoulder junction. In essence they thicken the brass at that point so the neck can't expand to release the bullet. If the bullets are seated out past the junction they're not a problem.

A donut http://i43.tinypic.com/2nuq2jr.jpg the result..http://i42.tinypic.com/fvfvpf.jpg

Maybe?

I checked some of my cases and could not find any that looked like they had a donut in them. I did check my firing pin though and it had a protrusion of .067 and I reset back too .049 and may set it back a little farther if I need to. I hope this fixes my problem of periced primers.

I want to thank Billpa for his instructions and photos and also suggestions on this website as they are a great help.

Book,
Your question made me curious about carbon cleaners, soi I tried a test. I had a 7-08 barrel that had been shot quite a bit and cleaned it with my normal methods until it was "clean". Then I sprayed it down inside with Seafoam "Deep creep", a marine carbon cleaner. let it sit fro 30 minutes. Then I brushed it again with a bronze brush wet with Butches Bore Shine.

Just spraying it didn't really dissolve the carbon (like nothing oozing out the muzzle), but I raise a good bit more of the carbon when I brushed it. I repeated this process 2 times and got additional carbon out each time. It fell off significantly the third time and was negligible on the fourth. My theory is that carbon is tough and the carbon killer softens it up where a bronze brush can remove it. YMMV.
ELkbane

Elkbane I am inclined to agree with you on that, based on my experance with this barrel. I scrubbed it with a bronze brush and outers foam cleaner. Then ran a patch soaked in Kroil through it, and then left it set over night, I did this several times. After that I used the carbon cleaner from Merc. Marine and left it set for a 1/2 hour, I did this several times also. After each treatment it was scrubbed with kroil and a bronze brush. It now comes out clean and if it is still dirty I give up and it will be replaced. I also scrubbed it with a well worn 20 Cal. brush wrapped in enough 0000 steel wool to fit snug and soaked in Kroil. This barrel shot in the .2 s and 3. s pretty regularly for the first 150 rounds and even managed one .176 group early on I hope it returns.