243, 223 misc

I was extremely disappointed with my Savage 243 today. I admit, it wasn't the best day for shooting. Before I left the wind was fairly light but after arriving and shooting I believe it got up to 30 MPH at times. I don't think a steady wind would affect group size but it will affect POI. Even allowing some for the wind variables I think it should have done better. It was a 100 gr Speer Grand Slam with 40 grains of 4350. It has done better but never has shot very good. The 223 wasn't anything to brag about either. Best group was about .78 MOA, which isn't horrible and I believe the 52 grain bullet would be more affected by variable winds. Do lighter bullets normally shoot better with a 243 or a different powder? Also, on the 223, I am driving to Lincoln tomorrow and getting heavier bullets for the 223, 68 and 69 grain Hornady and Sierra along with 1# of CFE 223 and Benchmark. Sound like something that has potential, or any suggestions?

A few weeks ago, I went to my usual 100 yard range on a day when the wind kicked up more than expected. I normally won't shoot in that kind of wind but I made the drive and tried to make the best of it. It was my worst day of shooting ever with unexplained flyers and generally poor groupings. The target end of the range is closed in and it was really swirling down there.

For purposes of shooting groups, I don't think you can count on a steady wind. If it's very windy, you are adding another variable that you can't control. On the other hand, days like that represent an opportunity to practice and hone your skills at estimating and adjusting for the wind.

Read this thread before going.

https://www.savageshooters.com/showt...-new-12-FV-223

I would pass on the 68gn Hornady and get Sierra Match Kings or Tipped Match Kings, either 69 or 77gn (I like the 77gn best).

Anything under a MOA is predictable and warrants for head shots along way out.

Until you go down the worm hole a MOA gun is very nice and works as intended if you know how to work your scope and understand the bullets drop out from your zero.
Cheers and good shooting


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Would the 223 be able to stabilize the 77 grain reliably? It looks like the 52 grain Sierra was the best of the bunch in that particular rifle. I don't expect my 223 do do nearly that good. I would be very happy with .65 SOMEWHAT CONSISTENTLY, and .5 would be all I could even hope for once in maybe 4 or 5 groups. I have a 22-250 Model 12 with the heavy barrel that should be able to do that or maybe better, with a good marksman. I have done roughly .5 myself, although certainly not every time. I know there are better marksman than I am but I am not a total bum either.

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Would the 223 be able to stabilize the 77 grain reliably?

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Twist rate, length of bullet and velocity determine the ability to stabilize, not caliber.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Twist rate, length of bullet and velocity determine the ability to stabilize, not caliber.

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I thought all 223s were 1 in 9. That's is what mine is.

The question you posed in #5 about 77 grain bullets in a 1:9 twist .223 barrel is one I had for years and used the twist stability calculators to tell me they wouldn't be stable.
Then thread members hamiltonkiler and charlie b convinced me to try 77 grain bullets in my 1:9 twist 12 FV.

Post #68 in the thread that charlie b referenced answers your question.
Attachment 6959

I have tested 77 grain bullets in 2 of my 1:9 twist rifles (the 12 FV and a CZ 527 Varmint) and had 3 range buddies do the same in their 1:9 twist rifles (three Savage model 10s and a CZ 527 Varmint).
In all of the six rifles tested, the 77 grain Sierra bullets (both SMK #9377 and TMK #7177) with both hand loads and factory ammo shot as good or better group averages with the 77s as any other bullets the tested rifles had shot.

Three or more 5-round groups were shot with the 77 grain bullets in all the rifles.
That said, I can only report my results and am confident in the rigor of the testing and measurements.
For the 12 FV results show in the attached table, the results were based on 275 groups shot using 77 grain bullets (64 groups -SMK bullets and 201 groups -TMK bullets) with two different powders (slower burning powders than the powders I use for lighter bullets since I have found the slower burning powders were more accurate with the heavy bullets based upon thousands of rounds shot through my 1:8 twist and 1:7 twist .223 rifles).

I can't vouch for anyone else's results, but my results have a good statistical basis.
My conclusion, based upon the rifles tested, is that the 1:9 twist will stabilize Sierra 77 grain bullets. I can't vouch for any other 77 grain bullets since I haven't tested them.
Note that the data in the attached table shows that 68 grain Hornady and 70 grain Berger bullets don't shoot anywhere near as well as the Sierra 69 or 77 grain bullets even though the stability calculators say they are stable.

For may years, I believed the available twist stability calculators without question.
Once I tried the 77 Sierras in my rifles, I started to look at the stability calculators and found that the general approach was developed for artillery shells that have pretty stubby shapes. In addition, all of the calculators available use simplified versions of the original equations.

The secant shaped tips on modern bullets may not fit the presumptions of calculator's equations exactly.
The calculators are generally correct but certain bullet shapes attain stability better than others of the same weight and the calculators don't account for it.

The 77 SMKs have a calculator stability rating around 1.36 while the 77 TMKs have a calculator stability rating around 1.12.
The calculator purveyors tell you that a rating of 1.5 is desirable and anything lower provides 'marginal stability'.
Look at my data and decide for yourself if the marginal 1.12 stability calculator rating of the 77 TMK bullets seriously effects them being at top of the Powder-bullet rank in the attached table right along with the 69 grain Sierra bullets that are rated as 'stable' by the stability calculators.

^^I did read the whole thing a couple of times. Based on that, I changed my order a little. It is windy as hell again today but I may go out toward evening if the wind goes down. A lot of times it does but you don't have much light left either. I am using a new powder and a new bullet in the 223. Actually, the factory Winchester 40 grain worked better than all but one handload I tried so far. I know it takes a good bit of experimentation and testing under adverse conditions may be worse than doing nothing at all, only adding to confusion

That is amazing accuracy. I will be pleased beyond belief if I can get half that good..

I have a sporter barrel 10 in .243. Im not sure what the twist is, but i usually shoot 55 grain Winchester Ballistic Silvertips. It will shoot sub moa. Almost 3900 fps. Im not sure if those rounds are still available or not.

2 words.........WIND FLAGS.

Before we talk about group sizes, what diameter barrels do you have? The std sporter barrels can present a problem when shooting more than 2 or three rounds, or you have to let them cool significantly between shots. If you have heavy barrels they should do 5 round groups easily, if not more.

The 77gn SMK's were a surprise to many of us as they are supposed to be used in 8 twist or faster barrels. I have shot them at 1000yd and had 1.5MOA accuracy (yes, that surprised me too). At 600yd I can keep them down to MOA or less. At 300yd and closer they are usually at .5MOA. Mine is an Axis with a factory heavy barrel.

As noted above, wind is the biggest factor with the .22's.

The 243 has the thin barrel. The 223 is actually not a Savage, it is a Remington 783. I am a little surprised at this rifle. It has a heavier barrel than the standard Savage but is not a heavy barrel. It's really a nice little rifle. Overall weight is heavier than the Savage 243, adjustable trigger is excellent. I like the trigger better than the Savage. I can't say it is better but it can be set lighter, at least on the one I have. Maybe the next one won't be as light but I am impressed with the trigger and the whole gun for the price. It is based off the Marlin X-7 or XL-7, whatever they call it. It is built just like a Savage for the most part.

My Axis .243 shoots Fiocchi 95gr SST into 1/2" groups. I bet you can find some load it likes...

I am pleased as punch today. Just got back from shooting and I think this is pretty darn good even for some of you more experienced guys. The wind was about as calm as it gets in this country and I wanted to take advantage of it. I tried 2 bullets, a 52 grain and 69 grain. The first couple groups with the 52 grain were decent. One group was approximately .75 MOA and I was reasonably satisfied, but I know to a lot of you that is unacceptable. I then shot the 69 grain bullets. I was simply astounded with my last group. It was approximately .25 MOA. I realize I am not the best marksman but I can definitely say the 69 grain was more accurate than the 52 grain. I will continue to experiment but it is going to be pretty hard to improve, at least considering that I know I could improve my marksmanship.

One thing that puzzles me, both on the Savage 22-250 and on the Remington the heavier bullets shot higher. On the savage there was a huge difference, over 2" from the 52 grain to the 60. On the Remington it was less, about 1 1/4" from the 52 to the 69 grain. What is the reason for this? Maybe in another gun there would be different results but in both of mine the heavier bullet shot higher.

Heavier bullets will print higher because of more recoil and barrel time. The guns starts to recoil soon as you pull the trigger, and heavier bullets will give more primary recoil and spend more time in the barrel during the the rise of the muzzle. A heavier gun with a less angled stock will be less affected.

I have often wondered if recoil didn't affect shots. I asked some other people about this and they said it leaves the barrel so fast it has no or a very marginal effect. I don't think they knew what they were talking about. What you say makes perfect sense. It is a little strange the Savage was affected more though. The Savage was shooting a lighter bullet (52 and 60), than the Remington (52 and 69) is much heavier but still seemed to be affected a lot more than the smaller, lighter rifle.

From my data from my most accurate center fire rifles in calibers from .223 to .308, collected over 9 years, that the heaviest calibers with more 'felt' recoil are less accurate at 100 yards.

.223 (Savage 12 FV and Les Baer Super Varmint) have a .352 average for 830 groups.
6.5mm CM (Savage 12 LRP, 12 FV and 10T-SR) have a 0.363 average for 1018 groups.
.308 (Savage 10 FP and 10 FCP-K) have a 0.443 average for 429 groups.

All the data was recorded using the exact same type of rests, with heavy barrels and using stocks or chassis that are rigid and with scopes with from 30 to 36 power and target reticles.

Personally, I think the heavier recoil moves the shooter off set up position more than the lighter recoil after each shot.
It also amplifies the effect of inconsistent set up position which moves the barrel enough to stretch groups just a but, usually horizontally.
You can see that amplification in the amount of barrel movement off the point of aim if you don't have the stock in precisely the right position in your shoulder or if your eye creeps in toward the scope recovering from recoil.

It takes a lot of concentration and observation to get back into the exact same set up position after each shot.
I work very hard on doing that, but being moved off the position after each shot, even imperceptibly, shows up in slightly bigger groups as caliber and recoil increases because I don't always recover my position as precisely as I should.
Even within the same rifle, I see a bit of that if you shoot loads near Pmax versus lighter loads.
The heavier recoil from a 'hotter load' might have something to do with that.

As for bullet weight, in my heavy barrel .308s, one of my rifles likes heavy bullets, 175 grains and above, and the other likes bullets from 150 to 168 grains. I can feel the slight difference in recoil when I shoot 195 grain bullets versus 155 grain bullets out of the rifles). But the long term averages for the two rifles are 0.442 and 0.443 and the smaller average is with the heavy bullet rifle. Those averages are statistically identical so my data says that bullet weight may not make a significant difference as long as the bullet weight matches the barrel's preference.

I had an experience that confirmed this for me.

I shoot off a std bench rest (Caldwell) with a good rear bag. The rifle is heavy, a 12BVSS with 24x scope (just under 12lb). Shooting full bore 175gn load I will get less than MOA most of the time, if I am doing my part. One day I had the bipod attached (still shooting from the bench rest) and my groups were smaller. So, I removed the bipod and the groups opened up a little, from 1/2 MOA to just under 1MOA. Not much extra weight, but, it is well out in front of the bench rest.

Knowing the rate of twist on your barrels is a must when selecting bullets for handloading. Bullet length has more to do with stabilization than weight.

For your 223 Rem, instead of 52 gr, try 53 gr V-Max which has a much higher B.C. than many heavier bullets. It will shoot much better in wind. You can go as heavy as the 77 SMK but due to design, it may not shoot the lighter 75 HPBT Hornaday. The 69 gr is likely a good bet, lots of choices there.

For your 243, unless it's an 8 twist or faster the 100 gr are not likely to stabilize. Most 243's are geared towards light, varmint bullets. Because it's a sporter barrel (did I get that correct) it's fine for deer and other like game where two shots max is norm, but rapid, repeated shots such as Prairie dog hunts it will likely not group well as the barrel heats up quickly. The 86 gr V-Max is a good choice for large varmints and deer.

^^^^I have some 75 grain for the 243. It didn't shoot great with them but it was better than the 100 grain. I also have some 87 grain I had from years ago but I don't know what brand they are. They are a hollow point. I won't give up on the 243 but even Savage can produce a lemon once in awhile. I might come back singing its praises someday. Like I've said before, I am new to this but this forum is an excellent place to learn.

The 22-250 Savage with the heavy barrel shoots pretty good, probably it is my fault more than anything if it doesn't group well but I do think I am getting to be a better shooter and have had some good results with it, none of them were terrible like the 243. Takes time and practice.