Ordering parts is beyond dumb with Savage at times

I tried a little experiment. I put in a Savage support work order on 7/16 and asked for "the form" so I can order a new sear/top bolt release for my Model 12. I then called Savage and asked to order the part. The person on the phone took my serial number and emailed "the form" and I sent it back the same day. A couple of days ago I got a new sear in the mail. Okay, great. Today, I get a response from the support work order stating I needed to order through my licensed gunsmith for this part. I mean, do they not have a computer where they can see that a customer is simultaneously requesting the same same part through two different channels and they sent the part through one of them. Somebody seriously needs to be canned in Support over there because it seriously sucks. They act like I have a licensed gunsmith like I have a licensed dentist or something. I doubt Savage Support is competent enough to keep these waiver forms on file in case somebody does sue them. The appropriate response from the Online Support should have been to ask for the firearm serial number and they could have responded that one has already been sent.

Here is my response to the Savage support ticket, which they closed and I reopened...

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I wish Savage would get their act together. What you are telling me is not true. I called Savage and they emailed me the form. I completed it and returned it to Savage. Savage in turn sent me the part at no cost. Please direct me to your supervisor. All this nonsense needs to stop and parts made available without all the red tape and false information going around. Somebody needs to be fired because Savage is becoming more of a nuisance than a necessity.


----- Original Message -----
From: Debra Roberts (Savage Arms, Inc) <support@savagearms.zendesk.com>
To: Pearl-jam
Sent: Sun, 05 Aug 2018 12:28:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Savage Arms, Inc] Re: Top bolt release

##- Please type your reply above this line -##

Your request (#124641) has been solved. To reopen this request, reply to this email or click the link below:
https://savagearms.zendesk.com/hc/requests/124641

----------------------------------------------

Debra Roberts, Aug 5, 12:28 PM EDT

Hi Joseph,
The sear is a restricted part that a licensed gunsmith will need to order.


Please have your licensed gunsmith contact the service department with your serial number to place the order.
The service department will have the part number, price and availability.
The service department is 1-800-370-0708 option 5, the service department is available Monday thru Friday from 8am to 5pm EST.
thank you,
Debbi

I have posted here before that their email CS system is disconnected from their Phone CS system. Maybe not the best system, but since doing away with the online ordering system, it's what we have to work with. So PLEASE....don't screw it up for the rest of us who have no trouble getting parts normally sold to Smiths.

As far as insisting someone needs to lose their job, I hope you don't really mean you'd put someone on the street just because you don't like they way the business is run. That's awfully mean spirited. They aren't paid a livable wage to start with in CS, and like anyone else, they follow the rules or hit the road. It's not their business to run it the way you want. Just say'n.

Having worked in support in various guises for years now, the info provided in the previous comment about two separate support databases is probably true. Savage has likely had the phone based support system in place for 20+ years and the email/online based support system for 10+ years. It can be impossibly difficult to migrate large amounts of data (support tickets) from system to system.

It doesn't surprise me at all that two separate support tickets were put in two separate systems. Is that inefficient? Oh yes. Unless they charged your credit card twice, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

It is no excuse and yes it is so bad that somebody in management needs to be canned. I don't get this don't screw it up for everybody bug-a-boo. It is already screwed up for everybody. It is the same mindset that came up with the soft plastic bottom bolt release.

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They were supposed to have an online parts store on the website live by January 2018... Still ain't seen it...

Today I tried calling in an order to Savage customer service for bolt parts and was flat out denied. What is beyond understanding is that I can call Brownells, Midwayusa, Gunshack, etc. and order with out issue the parts. In fact, I will be placing an order soemwhere when everything gets in stock.

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Originally Posted by strut64

Today I tried calling in an order to Savage customer service for bolt parts and was flat out denied. What is beyond understanding is that I can call Brownells, Midwayusa, Gunshack, etc. and order with out issue the parts. In fact, I will be placing an order soemwhere when everything gets in stock.

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That's where I start, then if I cant find what I need, I call Savage.

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Originally Posted by Blckwlf

That's where I start, then if I cant find what I need, I call Savage.

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Exactly my gameplan!!!

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Originally Posted by strut64

Today I tried calling in an order to Savage customer service for bolt parts and was flat out denied. What is beyond understanding is that I can call Brownells, Midwayusa, Gunshack, etc. and order with out issue the parts.

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It's called Liability - you can thank lawyers and the courts for it.

The problem here is that you guys have no clue how things work at Savage. When it comes to parts, there are no pre-assembly quality control checks on piece parts. In other words, they have no clue if unassembled parts are to spec or not or if they'll properly fit and function in a firearm or not.

For example, the bolt sub-assembly. The bolt assembly is put together as a sub assembly prior to being mated to an action. If/when assembling a bolt they come across a part that doesn't go together the way it should on a given assembly (i.e. the bolt head retaining pin holes don't match up when mating the bolt body and bolt head), they set it aside and grab another one. They then try that part on the next assembly and if it goes together great, if not it gets set aside again. How many times it has to "not work" to be considered junk or defective I don't know/can't say, but that's now they do things.

Same holds true when mating the bolt assembly to an action. If they insert a bolt into an action and it doesn't close/function properly it's set aside and another bolt assembly is tried. The non-fitting one will then be tried in the next action and if it works properly great - if not it gets set aside and another bolt is used.

That in a nut shell is Savage's quality control and it is why they mandate many parts are "gunsmith only" - because a gunsmith should/would have the knowledge to notice if it's right or not when he puts in on the customers rifle. Fred can give you plenty of examples of bad parts he has gotten from Savage over the years.

- Bolt bodies that were too long or short
- Bolt heads that were way out of spec
- Improperly ground bolt handles that resulted in no primary extraction
- Actions that had the barrel threads off-center from the centerline of the action

All of the above are things that would typically be noticed and caught during assembly, but as individual separate parts they have no way of knowing if they're within spec or not.

As an "authorized" or "approved" parts supplier large retailers such as Brownells, Midway USA and others take on the hassle and liability of having to replace/exchange bad parts that might get out to the customer. By Savage restricting certain parts to gunsmiths it covers their butts if/when these retailers sell said items to non-gunsmiths which thus puts the liability on said retailer because said retailer didn't impose the same restriction as the manufacturer.

Unfortunately there are no authorized or approved parts suppliers who carry all the commonly sought out parts for Savage firearms at this time. I know Savage was looking to try and change that, but from what I was able to gather they might have demanded too much in terms of buy-in (minimum parts order) and dropped the ball when it came to specifying the scope of parts offered. Most would just want to handle the common things that are in higher demand such as bolt heads, magazines, extractor and ejector parts, etc. Few if any want to tie up money inventorying parts that are in less demand like bottom metal, firing pins, bolt bodies, front or rear baffles, etc.

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Originally Posted by J.Baker

It's called Liability - you can thank lawyers and the courts for it.

The problem here is that you guys have no clue how things work at Savage. When it comes to parts, there are no pre-assembly quality control checks on piece parts. In other words, they have no clue if unassembled parts are to spec or not or if they'll properly fit and function in a firearm or not.

For example, the bolt sub-assembly. The bolt assembly is put together as a sub assembly prior to being mated to an action. If/when assembling a bolt they come across a part that doesn't go together the way it should on a given assembly (i.e. the bolt head retaining pin holes don't match up when mating the bolt body and bolt head), they set it aside and grab another one. They then try that part on the next assembly and if it goes together great, if not it gets set aside again. How many times it has to "not work" to be considered junk or defective I don't know/can't say, but that's now they do things.

Same holds true when mating the bolt assembly to an action. If they insert a bolt into an action and it doesn't close/function properly it's set aside and another bolt assembly is tried. The non-fitting one will then be tried in the next action and if it works properly great - if not it gets set aside and another bolt is used.

That in a nut shell is Savage's quality control and it is why they mandate many parts are "gunsmith only" - because a gunsmith should/would have the knowledge to notice if it's right or not when he puts in on the customers rifle. Fred can give you plenty of examples of bad parts he has gotten from Savage over the years.

- Bolt bodies that were too long or short
- Bolt heads that were way out of spec
- Improperly ground bolt handles that resulted in no primary extraction
- Actions that had the barrel threads off-center from the centerline of the action

All of the above are things that would typically be noticed and caught during assembly, but as individual separate parts they have no way of knowing if they're within spec or not.

As an "authorized" or "approved" parts supplier large retailers such as Brownells, Midway USA and others take on the hassle and liability of having to replace/exchange bad parts that might get out to the customer. By Savage restricting certain parts to gunsmiths it covers their butts if/when these retailers sell said items to non-gunsmiths which thus puts the liability on said retailer because said retailer didn't impose the same restriction as the manufacturer.

Unfortunately there are no authorized or approved parts suppliers who carry all the commonly sought out parts for Savage firearms at this time. I know Savage was looking to try and change that, but from what I was able to gather they might have demanded too much in terms of buy-in (minimum parts order) and dropped the ball when it came to specifying the scope of parts offered. Most would just want to handle the common things that are in higher demand such as bolt heads, magazines, extractor and ejector parts, etc. Few if any want to tie up money inventorying parts that are in less demand like bottom metal, firing pins, bolt bodies, front or rear baffles, etc.

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Totally get the liability and the form, the problem is the inconsistency. Depending on who you talk to at Savage you may or may not be able to buy the part.

FYI...Well, this particular part is now available online.

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Originally Posted by J.Baker

It's called Liability - you can thank lawyers and the courts for it.

The problem here is that you guys have no clue how things work at Savage. When it comes to parts, there are no pre-assembly quality control checks on piece parts. In other words, they have no clue if unassembled parts are to spec or not or if they'll properly fit and function in a firearm or not.

For example, the bolt sub-assembly. The bolt assembly is put together as a sub assembly prior to being mated to an action. If/when assembling a bolt they come across a part that doesn't go together the way it should on a given assembly (i.e. the bolt head retaining pin holes don't match up when mating the bolt body and bolt head), they set it aside and grab another one. They then try that part on the next assembly and if it goes together great, if not it gets set aside again. How many times it has to "not work" to be considered junk or defective I don't know/can't say, but that's now they do things.

Same holds true when mating the bolt assembly to an action. If they insert a bolt into an action and it doesn't close/function properly it's set aside and another bolt assembly is tried. The non-fitting one will then be tried in the next action and if it works properly great - if not it gets set aside and another bolt is used.

That in a nut shell is Savage's quality control and it is why they mandate many parts are "gunsmith only" - because a gunsmith should/would have the knowledge to notice if it's right or not when he puts in on the customers rifle. Fred can give you plenty of examples of bad parts he has gotten from Savage over the years.

- Bolt bodies that were too long or short
- Bolt heads that were way out of spec
- Improperly ground bolt handles that resulted in no primary extraction
- Actions that had the barrel threads off-center from the centerline of the action

All of the above are things that would typically be noticed and caught during assembly, but as individual separate parts they have no way of knowing if they're within spec or not.

As an "authorized" or "approved" parts supplier large retailers such as Brownells, Midway USA and others take on the hassle and liability of having to replace/exchange bad parts that might get out to the customer. By Savage restricting certain parts to gunsmiths it covers their butts if/when these retailers sell said items to non-gunsmiths which thus puts the liability on said retailer because said retailer didn't impose the same restriction as the manufacturer.

Unfortunately there are no authorized or approved parts suppliers who carry all the commonly sought out parts for Savage firearms at this time. I know Savage was looking to try and change that, but from what I was able to gather they might have demanded too much in terms of buy-in (minimum parts order) and dropped the ball when it came to specifying the scope of parts offered. Most would just want to handle the common things that are in higher demand such as bolt heads, magazines, extractor and ejector parts, etc. Few if any want to tie up money inventorying parts that are in less demand like bottom metal, firing pins, bolt bodies, front or rear baffles, etc.

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Oh, I have a clue. Is this diffraction or deflection from the asinine part ordering from Savage? For decades Savage has had no problem with their tolerances and now they just try a part until it fits some arbitrary firearm on down the line for some reason so they decide to just make up some sort of parts system they have to be very wary careful that makes complete sense to only you. So, we each have a one off firearm. Right. We have no clue. Brownell et al are willing to take on the liability that the manufacture won't touch. Sell us a bill of goods why don't you.

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Originally Posted by culpeper

Oh, I have a clue. Is this diffraction or deflection from the asinine part ordering from Savage? For decades Savage has had no problem with their tolerances and now they just try a part until it fits some arbitrary firearm on down the line for some reason so they decide to just make up some sort of parts system they have to be very wary careful that makes complete sense to only you. So, we each have a one off firearm. Right. We have no clue. Brownell et al are willing to take on the liability that the manufacture won't touch. Sell us a bill of goods why don't you.

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Seriously? Why insult the one authority on the subject here? He wasn't making excuses, he was explaining the reality of their operation. Perfectly reasonable explanation, at that. After handling, disassembling parting-out and remanufacturing 100's of new and used Savage 10/110's I can accept his explanation based soley on personal experience.

I'm not entirely sure, though I've read it a few times, but I think OP's diatribe is directed towards Savage and not J.P. I think it's missing a few grammatical pieces that clarify he's speaking about Savage and not J.P.

As mentioned i can't quite figure this out. Maybe J.P. said something about his mom in a PM?

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Originally Posted by foxx

Seriously? Why insult the one authority on the subject here? He wasn't making excuses, he was explaining how the reality of their operation. Perfectly reasonable explanation, at that.

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What JB is describing goes against all manufacturing overhead costs reduction. If true, Savage knows they have their head up their asses. Making it sound logical is like pissing on somebody's shoes and telling them it is raining.

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Originally Posted by culpeper

What JB is describing goes against all manufacturing overhead costs reduction. If true, Savage knows they have their head up their asses. Making it sound logical is like pissing on somebody's shoes and telling them it is raining.

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Hmmm... maybe you should be their COO. Save them from themselves before it's too late.

The fact that you think there is only one authority on Savage here speaks volumes. How about putting a Savage on your list of firearms? I'm only complaining about the stupid customer support. And the only logical explanation is Savage doesn't trust their own parts so they rely on retailers to take on the liability. That is golden.

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I wasn't defending Savage's C/S, was simply stating the way it is. Whether you choose to accept reality or not I could really care less.

Of course in your view every factory I every worked in was doing it wrong as not one of them gauged every single part that came off a machine. Nope, every factory I've ever worked in batch tests, meaning they pluck a couple of random parts from a large batch to check to see if they're within tolerance. If those couple parts pass the whole batch passes. Savage is no different.

With Savage's it's a matter of stacked tolerances. Every part has a +/- tolerance on one or more key dimensions, and if you get a number of parts going together that are all similarly on the high or low end of their tolerance it's going to result in an assembly that overall as a whole is well out of tolerance. It's basic math.

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Originally Posted by culpeper

What JB is describing goes against all manufacturing overhead costs reduction.

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So it reduces costs for a company to pay several people to stand there with callipers and gauge each part that goes into a Savage rifle? ....right.

I really think you've got some revolutionary ideas about quality control. I hear Remington is having quality control issues these days. I suggest you submit your resume immediately. The sooner you start, the better. Then, you can spend the next several years making Remington great again. All the while pushing the edge of the firearms market until you finally accomplish your dream of destroying Savage; the company that defies reducing manufacturing costs. And that's just not acceptable in your version of reality.

If you do decide to go this route, please start a blog to document the process. I'd love to follow.

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Originally Posted by culpeper

The fact that you think there is only one authority on Savage here speaks volumes. How about putting a Savage on your list of firearms? I'm only complaining about the stupid customer support. And the only logical explanation is Savage doesn't trust their own parts so they rely on retailers to take on the liability. That is golden.

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I did not say or intend to be interpreted as though J.B. is the only Savage authority here. That would be ridiculous. I meant he was the only known and present authority in regards to their manufacturing process. He has no reason to lie about it. As for my list of firearms and Savage, I don't know what you are talking about, and, frankly, I do not care to participate in this ridiculous discussion any further. Perhaps you've just had a bad day and got a burr up your butt, as I have many times before and decided to rant. It's not worth carrying on any further. :)

I'm a retired machinist. I worked in job shops mostly and on manual machines. Some shops had CNC machines and I always did the manual machine work. In that environment I learned that CNC machines don't make perfectly repeated parts, but then, neither did I. Some better shops had a digital comparator to check parts on but they didn't check all the parts. The operator is supposed to watch the tooling for wear and change it if it's worn, if not, the parts will be out of spec. Not all parts are the same and is why few gun manufacturers will sell parts to the public.

In the middle 1960's I did fast draw using Ruger Single Six pistols. Colt pistols wouldn't hold up to fanning them like the Ruger. I could buy any part I wanted except the frame from Ruger. These days I doubt any manufacturer would sell parts to the public and am surprised that Savage will sell parts to the public. Especially since they won't even sell me a barrel for my Savage 12-112 which is a simple screw in replacement using a headspace gauge, the barrel nut and wrench.

I guess if a part breaks on my Savage and a friend that is an FFL can't get it I will make it. Sorry about your luck if your not a machinist with a shop at home.