Need some take-down help

Okay... thanks to certain air lines enforcing the 62" length + width + height rule a bit more strictly than others, I decided to get a new Pelican/Storm IM3100 case rather than get stuck with $175 each way for over-size baggage charges for an up-coming match that I am flying to. I already had a Storm IM3300, and to say that they are *rugged* is an understatement. The 3100 should be more so, given there is less for the baggage gorillas to lever against ;)

The bad news is that a short-action Target Action w/ 30" barrel just flat ain't going to fit in there. I knew I'd have to take the barreled action out of the stock (pretty much already had to do that with the bigger case), but I thought it would fit diagonally... better than it does. Technically, yeah, it fits with about 1/8-1/4" to spare at either corner. Even if it didn't make me extremely uncomfortable (which it does) just seeing how close it fits, the proximity of the trigger mechanism to the wall of the case is just too much to bear. Something has to change.

Shortening the barrel isn't an option. Great idea, but ain't gonna happen any time real soon and the flight is coming up in a couple weeks.

So... that leaves me with taking the barrel *off* the receiver. Now, I've changed out barrels no few number of times, so I'm not exactly inexperienced at it. But normally I'm in my garage or my basement shop, with my big super-heavy Midway barrel vise to clamp the barrel in and a big 12" Crescent wrench handy to tighten down the huge bolts. Given that space - and weight - are at a premium in this scenario... I can't exactly lug them along.

Does anyone here have experience with anything lighter weight and more compact, such as the aluminum Davidson vise sold by Sinclair Int'l?

Also... assuming I take my set of Go/No-Go gauges and SSS barrel-nut wrench, how repeatable should I expect things to be in terms of returning to zero? Would it be worthwhile to etch/scribe reference lines from the receiver to the lug to the barrel nut to the barrel, to give an additional visual indicator of when things are lined up where they need to be?

As mentioned, I've changed barrels any number of times, but its always been going from barrel 'A' to barrel 'B', often in an entirely different chambering. I didn't expect it to shoot to the same POI as before, and was okay with re-zeroing the gun, including fussing about with Burris rings and inserts to 'make' things line up. I expect to have to make a quick trip to the sight-in range once I get where I'm going and maye have to adjust my zero a little... but having to mess with the rings and shims on site is something I'd rather not have to do if possible.

I'll probably be spending a bit of time between now and then zeroing the gun (need to change out the rings) and then taking it apart, putting back together and checking zero several times... Any heads up ideas or gotchas to watch for would be much appreciated!

TIA,

Monte

Monte, all you need is a 700 Rem rear entry action wrench and an modified open ended nut wrench and no need for barrel blocks, vise and you don't to remove the scope or mounts.

http://i34.tinypic.com/72ggep.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/21omvia.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/20iwen6.jpg

It requires some practice to get it right, but I've shot as many as four different barrels during one range session swapping them on the shooting bench and using pre-loaded ammo. Yes, you'll have to put the BA from the stock, but if it bedded correctly it will go back in exactly where is was.

One "trick" I use, before pulling a barrel record the scope settings with a bore sighter. When you reinstall that barrel adjust to the scope to the recorded settings. Most times I'll be on paper , a 4"x" 5.5" @100.

Another trick. Make or have headspace gauges made with only .002" difference between the GO-NO GO. That will allow you to quickly set/reset the headspace to within .001" instead .003" without shimming the GO.

All that stuff will fit in your rifle case, no need to drag another box of junk around.

Oh BTW, don't use those tools to remove a factory installed barrel. I use a clamp on action wrench and full spammer for those.

Bill

I you ever thought about shipping your rifle UPS to someone or someplace at your destination?

I think your pelican storm case is more than 62" l,w,h. , catalog adds to 63".
I mail = USPS rifles frequently with no problems, to myself General Delivery when needed.
joe b.

Initially mailing the rifle to 'myself' was the plan... but the time constraints of the departing flight (i.e. leaving from the team practice @ the range, driving straight to the airport) that I got (straight thru no layovers) made that unworkable.

The case is going to be close as is... a friend I know uses one and hasn't had any issues (as of yet). Might be a matter of it doesn't *look* oversize so they don't get the tape measure out. The larger case would definitely raise some red flags. Unfortunately, there aren't many cases that literally fit under the 62" LxWxH limit - the Pelican 1700 is about the only one, but with its fixed external handles sticking out, the internal volume is noticeably less, making the 'fit' even more of an issue. Hoping for the best here...

I'll definitely take a look at the rear-entry action wrench. Been meaning to get one sooner or later anyways; now might be as good a time as any. I think I'll stick with a regular unmodified barrel-nut wrench for now; the scope is definitely coming off for shipping - no point in tempting fate *that* much ;)

Why not take the barreled action out of the stock ?
Put the barre;ed action in the case, and lay the stock in under it or ontop of it.

Quick question on the action wrench...

Looking @ Sinclair Int'l, and they show two rear-entry action wrenches... one for 'Remington-Shilen DGA' and the other for 'Stolle-Savage'. I would have thought the Savage would use the same one as the Remington?

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Originally Posted by 82boy

Why not take the barreled action out of the stock ?
Put the barre;ed action in the case, and lay the stock in under it or ontop of it.

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Please actually read my original post... second paragraph.

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Originally Posted by memilanuk

Please actually read my original post... second paragraph.

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Well then why dont you write in in a fashon that is clean and understandable. I did read your post, and I have re read it, again and got the same conclusion. All I can say is sorry for trying to help you out.

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Originally Posted by memilanuk

The bad news is that a short-action Target Action w/ 30" barrel just flat ain't going to fit in there. I knew I'd have to take the barreled action out of the stock (pretty much already had to do that with the bigger case), but I thought it would fit diagonally... better than it does. Technically, yeah, it fits with about 1/8-1/4" to spare at either corner. Even if it didn't make me extremely uncomfortable (which it does) just seeing how close it fits, the proximity of the trigger mechanism to the wall of the case is just too much to bear. Something has to change.

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I think he spelled it out pretty clearly Pat.

what am I missing? A 30" barrel with action should be lass than 48".. how come that won't fit in a 60" case. I think that is what 82boy was curious about

No, thats not what he asked, But since you did...

...because its 62 linear inches - not just length, but length + width + height (see the first line of the original post). Total interior length is listed as 36-1/2"... and the action + lug + barrel is ~37-3/4". Diagonally the case is barely 38-1/2" inside corner to corner.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by memilanuk

Quick question on the action wrench...

Looking @ Sinclair Int'l, and they show two rear-entry action wrenches... one for 'Remington-Shilen DGA' and the other for 'Stolle-Savage'. I would have thought the Savage would use the same one as the Remington?

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I don't know what the difference might be, maybe the small difference in lug dimensions? I never checked. I made the one I have years ago during my Rem switch barrel days and it happened to work for my Savages too.

Dave (PTG) also makes a rear entry wrench also. I believe one of the guys at the club uses one. I'd email or call Dave and/or Sinclair then you would be sure if you go this route. Midway lists PTG's "in stock".
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/816...0#ReviewHeader

Bill

Ever thought about JB Weld and a set screw on the barrel nut to basically turn it into a fixed shoulder to tighten against? It would be a repeatable headspace with no guages. Maybe not the best choice but it should work.

Got ahold of Russ Haydon this morning... sounds like the difference is the Remington tools have a slot for the anti-bind key-way, which is not present on Savage actions. I have a Davidson rear-entry action wrench on the way - and one of their barrel vises as well for other uses.

Sounds like a plan Monte. Let us know how it works.

Okay... got the vise and action wrench from Russ Haydon's Shooters Supply on Tuesday. Gotta love being just over the mountains from a great supplier like them - can't recommend them enough. Anyway... the action wrench is a rear-entry Davidson, marked for Stolle-Savage-Nesika - basically a flat bar with a head for a 3/4" hex wrench at the end. The vise looks a lot like a Davidson, but is marked 'Haydon' so I presume its their own in-house version? Dunno. Works great, fairly light (compared to the Midway one, *anything* short of a machinist's bench vise would be 'light') and clamped down easy enough with a 3" C-clamp to the bench, and gripped the barrel all snuggly with minimal effort. I'm not sure if I'd want to try removing a factory oxide-coated barrel with this thing, but for stainless barrels/actions or ones I've tightened down myself... seems to be fine. As an added bonus... the studs on the vise take 3/4" nuts, so only one size needed for both. Its a little thing, but some days when working on things it seems like every single fastener was intentionally designed with a different size nut/bolt out of pure sadism :rolleyes:

So... I took the rifle apart completely - scope off, stock off, barrel off, the works. After putting the barrel back on and setting the headspace, I dug out my carbide-tipped scribe, and marked a line from the receiver to the lug, one from the lug to the nut, and from the nut to the barrel. Following that, I mounted another scope (separate issue) and put everything else back together as well. I was careful to check the torque on both the action screws and the scope ring cross bolts, using a Borka torque driver to set the action screws to 36 in-lbs and the cross-bolts to 21 in-lbs, and making sure the scope rings were seated fully forward in the slots.

After that I headed to the range and bore-sighted the rifle and got down into position. I'd brought 25 rounds of ammunition to play around with, and was thoroughly shocked that my first shot, after completely disassembling everything - and mounting an entirely different scope - nicked the center diamond on the BC 3/4" Target Spot that I was aiming at. I *never* get that lucky... ever. That round actually was intended to be a fouler, as the bullet used was one that had been dropped and was considered 'suspect'... go figure! The following shots were a little low and left, so I corrected the group up and over accordingly, and fired one more 3-shot group at another aiming point - nice-n-tight, right where it should be so I went ahead and zeroed the turrets and put the caps back on. Keep in mind, I was using my full 'ultra-light' traveling setup here - a very thin TAB Gear shooting mat that rolls up to about the same diameter and half the length of a 2 liter bottle, and two Red Tac Gear cordura shooting bags that have shredded packing peanuts for filler and are very, very light-weight, plus a Flex Bipod. Not quite the same as shooting off of regular Protektor or Edgewood rear bags filled with heavy sand!

Picked up the gun and moved to the nearby bench with all the tools laid out. Took the scope off, took the stock off, pulled the bolt, and used the action wrench and barrel nut wrench to pop the barrel loose, and unscrewed the receiver all the way off and pulled the lug as well. Then I proceeded to put everything back together, checking the alignment of the scribed lines on the receiver/nut/barrel and the torque of the action screws and cross-bolts. I would then get back down in position, fire a five shot group at another 3/4" dot on the target without touching the scope turrets, get up and take everything apart again. Did that 3 times total. The gun was at worst ~1-1/2" out from point of aim, and the other times more like 1/2-3/4" away from the point of aim. It was interesting to note that the first group after zero was fairly tight, the next somewhat looser, the next one very tight again, and the last one loosened up again. As mentioned, I did check the torque with the Borka driver, which is supposed to be fairly repeatable (+/- 4%)... but the differences could have been entirely shooter-induced. Early in the year, kinda rusty, re-learning how to 'drive' the rifle with the uber-light bags, etc.

So... everything repeated well within my expectations, considering that the gun was basically disassembled between groups, short of taking the scope out of the rings.

The other observation was that the times I tried using the rear-entry action wrench *without* the barrel vise, just the barrel-nut wrench... well the phrase that came to mind involved monkeys performing un-natural acts with a football... :whistle:Not sure what I'm doing wrong, but that was not a confidence-builder. Once in the shop before leaving for the range, and then the first time I took it apart at the range. Both of those times I ended up resorting to the barrel vise. I could get things apart well enough... but tightening things up... guess I'm just not getting it.

Now I just have to lay out the pieces and figure out what is going in the gun case and what is going in my checked luggage bag. Yee-hah. :becky:

It sounds like you got it worked out. Repeatable and accurate, thats good. I have removed barrels at the range with a brass drift and small hammer. I just use the drift on the recesses of the barrel nut, and spin it loose. I dont even take them out of the stock, just loosen the barrel nut, then spin the barrel out of the action and barrel nut, while I am holding the nut. The new barrel goes back on without removing the action from the stock too.

I guess I am confused on one thing. Whenever I remove a barrel, I have never used an action wrench, Why do you need the action wrench for this operation?

Sean

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Originally Posted by memilanuk

O
The other observation was that the times I tried using the rear-entry action wrench *without* the barrel vise, just the barrel-nut wrench... well the phrase that came to mind involved monkeys performing un-natural acts with a football... :whistle:Not sure what I'm doing wrong, but that was not a confidence-builder. :becky:

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You weren't doing anything wrong, it has a learning curve and takes practice. I doubt you'll "master the art" in one session, I sure didn't. If you have to use the vise by all means use it, but hack the end out of that nut wrench so you don't have to fool around removing the scope and mounts. Open it just enough to barely clear the barrel. That will shorten your assembly time to 5 minutes and allow you to kick back and relax to watch that silly monkey perform!

Bill

There doesn't seem to be much point in modifying the wrench at this point... I have to take the scope off for air travel any ways, which is the whole point of this particular exercise (for me).

I'm trying to think how to put my problem/question/issue with the action wrench method into words without sounding completely stupid... probably not going to succeed in that regard, so I'll just spit it out: the action wrench goes where the bolt is supposed to be... without the bolt in place behind the headspace gauge, how the heck are you supposed to set the headspace? :confused:

Obviously it can be done, as it seems to work for you, but I'll be dipped if I can see it at this point. Then again, there was a reason Uncle Sam had me working with electrical thingies instead of mechanical doo-dads with more than one moving part... :becky:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by memilanuk

I'm trying to think how to put my problem/question/issue with the action wrench method into words without sounding completely stupid... probably not going to succeed in that regard, so I'll just spit it out: the action wrench goes where the bolt is supposed to be... without the bolt in place behind the headspace gauge, how the heck are you supposed to set the headspace? :confused:

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We're in deep doo doo! "Tecnicknel" writing aren't my strong point! :p

OK, the are two thingies that go in the receiver, the wench ... err wrench and the bolt. You only use the wrench to hold the action while loosening or tightening the nut. Other than that it just lays there and plays stupid.

Insert the wrench, loosen the nut, remove the wrench then insert the bolt and lock it. After bottoming the barrel on the gauge or case then snug the nut just enough to take the slack out of the threads. Try both gauges. If need be the action can still be turned by hand to tighten up the headspacesince the nut is only snugged, not tight at this point. If it suits, remove the bolt and install the action wrench to finish tightening the nut then try both gauges again. If not bump the nut loose and give it another go.

As I said, there's is a learning curve involved.

Bill

Ah. For removal I normally break the nut loose with the barrel clamped in the vise - that part I managed with the action wrench okay. For tightening I normally screw the receiver on hand tight, then with the bolt still closed and the gauge still in there, I torque the barrel nut to pull the slack out of the threads. After that I open the bolt and pull the GO gauge and try the NO-GO gauge. I guess I didn't trust things to stay put if I started popping the bolt open and removing the GO gauge before I had torqued the barrel nut all snuggly. Given that my version of 'hand tight' is snug enough that the bolt won't lift without some friction *until* I tighten the barrel nut... I would worry that the act of opening the bolt could back off (unscrew) the receiver ever so slightly.

Finished up cutting the foam and fitting the pieces into the case like a jig-saw puzzle... looks like it should make weight with the rifle, the scope, the bipod, the barrel wrench, the 3/4" box-end wrench, misc. small parts and accessories, and 120 rounds of match ammo in boxes. Yee-haw.

I'll have to put it back together tomorrow night and try the action wrench mojo again and see if I can make it work for me this time.

Thanks,

Monte

How much does 120 rounds of the ammo weigh?

Theoretically? A little under 8 lbs including the packaging - 185 gn bullet, ~175 gn case + primer, 44.5 gn of powder = ~404.5gn per loaded round. We'll see what it actually comes out to once I get everything actually loaded!

11 lbs / 5 kilos is the airline limit for loaded ammunition weight... might try sticking another partial box in my other checked bag just to have a few extras for sight-in.