need help with savage palma

Hi everyone, new member and need some advice.

I have recently purchased a new savage palma and immediately started reloading for it. all my hand loads shoot very inconsistently, usually 1"+. each group looks like it has 1 or 2 fliers. At first i thought it was my shooting so i kept practicing. then one day i bought some factory fed 150gr soft point ammunition and they shot great. all 5 shots into the same hole with every group i shot.

to my understanding the rifle's chamber and barrel were designed to shoot 155gr bullets. so Ive been using sierra's 155gr palma and nosler 155gr custom comp. i use varget powder, neck sized fed cases, and cci br primers. all cases and bullets are weight sorted and primer pockets clean. each charge is weighed in a manual scale.

could 5 grains make that much of a difference or should i be using a different powder. any advice would be greatly appreciated, i feel like i have spent more money on load testing than i paid for the rifle.

I would change powder myyself.

if you are getting acceptable groups with factory loads and reloads with varget are not shooting well the biggest factor would be powder and since even if and it is a very big "if" factory loads were using varget the odds of getting some of the exact same lot are next to impossible. Some people have great luck with varget as boots said but there seems to be some inconsistencies in lots and in results. That is why i said i would change powders. Try IMR4064 or BLC-2 if you want a ball powder. 4064 should get you a load that will group more to your liking and if not then BLC-2 or H380 should. depending on how far you intend to shoot there are a number of other powders that will give sufficient velocity to get to 600 yards.
any time you get locked into one powder you are likely to keep getting the same results.

Gary

What is the OAL to the ogive on the factory ammo vs the reloads. a few thousands difference could explain the fliers. Some bullets like to be at the lands and some like to be jammed in the lands. others like a huge jump

I will have to try some other powders. The reason I used varget was because it shoots well in my 22 250. I was seating the bullets close to the lands. The bullets on the factory federals are a different shape than what I've been using but I don't own a gauge.

Alot of savage's like a jump as high as .120 thou off the lands. I will say it if no one else will. I think varget is terrible powder. I have tried it in 4 cartridge's with no luck at all. Stay away from it and shoot blc-2,h335,4064,aa2520 etc. You should load 3 of each charge from where you start to where you see pressure signs. The node that seems the tightest group is the one to try up alittle or down and try seating .020 off the lands and work back to where the groups show improvement.Take your time to make sure it isnt your trigger skills which we really dont know how much time you have behind one. Not insulting you in any way,just an unknown. Hope this helps you. Make sure you shoot off bags or a rest with a good rear bag as well.

Thanks for the advice Jon. I will try some new powders, my shooting ability was the first thing I questioned so I kept shooting hoping to impove. After shooting the factory ammunition I realized that wasn't the problem. I was under the impression that varget was a favorite among target shooters.

Varget is a great powder, but people have found it to vary a lot from lot 2 lot. I've heard of as much as 300 feet per second. So you will have to re-work you load quite a bit when ever you buy more powder. Or buy in bulk from one lot #.

I've been using vaget with good results, but once this 8 lbs jug is gone I'm proably going to switch to something else. I don't like how it meters, and no way to know if my next jug will shoot as good.

fwiw my friends palma rifle had us scratchin our heads for quite awhile...would show signs of shootin well, only to scatter rounds later. all stopped when he bedded it. he did bed the first few inches of the barrel(aga9nst my advise) and now it shoots fine

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Originally Posted by jonbearman

I will say it if no one else will. I think varget is terrible powder. I have tried it in 4 cartridge's with no luck at all. Stay away from it and shoot blc-2,h335,4064,aa2520 etc.

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My neighbor says i am about a year away from being old and contankerious. I was trying to be nice and steer him away from varget as i have tried 16 + lbs of it and have yet to get a load that will shoot the same every time. I did like jon and went to BLC-2. I will try to do better from now on and not beat around the bush so much jon.


Gary

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Originally Posted by adam12

I was under the impression that varget was a favorite among target shooters.

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It is.

Varget is one of the most commonly used powders for the .223 Rem in NRA Service and Match Rifle competition. It is probably *the* most commonly used powder for the .308 Win by US Palma shooters, and one of the, if not the, most popular powders for US F/TR shooters in that caliber. Its also commonly used behind heavier bullets (105-107gn) in cartridges like the 6mm BR. Back when I shot a 6.5-08 for NRA Match Rifle, varget was very much a popular powder in my neck of the woods. Maybe not the zippiest load, but it'd stack 'em in there every time.

Not every gun likes it, granted. But most take to it well enough to make those that don't the exception rather than the rule.

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Originally Posted by adam12

I was seating the bullets close to the lands. The bullets on the factory federals are a different shape than what I've been using but I don't own a gauge.

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So if you don't have a gauge or comparator for checking the bullet seating depth... how exactly do you figure you are loading them 'close to the lands'? OAL won't cut it.

I take the firing pin out of the bolt and load a bullet on an empty case real long and then keep shortening it till the bolt will close.

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Varget is one of the most commonly used powders for the .223 Rem in NRA Service and Match Rifle competition. It is probably *the* most commonly used powder for the .308 Win by US Palma shooters, and one of the, if not the, most popular powders for US F/TR shooters in that caliber.

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Totally agree with the above! I personally use Varget and shoot with several who have the Savage Palma rifles. I not telling you to use the below as you should always work up to your load, but most of the people I shoot with are doing great with the below!

Using 155.5 Bergers, .010 in the lands, CCI primers, work up to 44.9grns Varget in .3grn increments! You SHOULD start off at 43.0 grns, then work up. Don't get in a hurry, and don't vary much with your loads. There is plenty of info here and you will find several video's on You Tube on reloading and looking for pressure signs on your brass.

Cratered Primers should be your first sign of "to hot of a load"!

I recommend getting a Hornady COAL guage setup. It's worth the money and IMO cuts out any guessing.

As you can see with the factory loads, the gun is very accurate! Bedding does make a difference! You just have to find the powder load for your gun!

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Originally Posted by adam12

I take the firing pin out of the bolt and load a bullet on an empty case real long and then keep shortening it till the bolt will close.

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Seriously?

You weigh the bullets and the powder and all, and then do the cave-man routine to find your seating depth? Your problem isn't the powder - as mentioned, Varget is the de facto standard for Palma loads - its most likely your loading technique. It sounds like you stumbled across a factory load that works well in your gun... but it probably has little to nothing to do with what powder it uses.

Do yourself a favor and get the Hornady LnL OAL tool, one of their modified cases for said tool, and the appropriate LnL comparator + inserts (or get the comparator + inserts from Sinclair Int'l - theirs are slightly better both in terms of design & functionality), mount them on your calipers and actually measure the seating depth for your chamber. Write it down. Better yet, take a couple readings each on a couple different bullets of each kind you want to use, write them down, and find the 'average'. Especially when starting out with these tools, the readings can be highly variable until you develop a feel for it. Back those Nosler and Sierra 155s off about 0.020" from the seating depth to the lands, and you should be a good range for accuracy without worrying about having a bullet stuck in the throat in the event of needing to eject a loaded round. Also, by doing things this way you can also periodically check your seating depth to monitor how much the throat wears (erodes) over time. You may see accuracy start to drop off eventually, and you may find that where you started out jumping the bullet 0.020" you're now jumping 0.030" - seating the bullet out a bit further to get back to 0.020" jump may bring the accuracy back, etc.

Some folks use a case with a slit in the neck, seat the bullet long and chamber it, letting the lands push the bullet back and then measure that using a comparator that fits on their calipers... it can work well enough if you can manage it, but I've usually had better luck doing it with the purpose-built tools.

I've found the slit case neck to be much more accurate but the trick is to use a cleaning rod from the muzzle, to help push the bullet out of the lands when you lift the bolt. It takes feel not to push too hard and push the bullet into the case. You just want to bump it and hold the bullet in place as you lift the bolt. Without the rod, 99% of the time the bullet is getting pulled out of the case slightly when you cam the bolt over. I do it multiple times until I get consistent results and with at least 3 or 4 bullets from the same box.

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Do yourself a favor and get the Hornady LnL OAL tool, one of their modified cases for said tool, and the appropriate LnL comparator + inserts (or get the comparator + inserts from Sinclair Int'l - theirs are slightly better both in terms of design & functionality), mount them on your calipers and actually measure the seating depth for your chamber. Write it down. Better yet, take a couple readings each on a couple different bullets of each kind you want to use, write them down, and find the 'average'.

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Also, by doing things this way you can also periodically check your seating depth to monitor how much the throat wears (erodes) over time. You may see accuracy start to drop off eventually, and you may find that where you started out jumping the bullet 0.020" you're now jumping 0.030" - seating the bullet out a bit further to get back to 0.020" jump may bring the accuracy back, etc.

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I totally agree, you will save yourself a lot of time and heartache!