Nitride the barrel

[jeffreyC]

Throat erosion is caused by flame cutting, this occurs when the barrel is hot.
If you can keep the barrel cool, either by shooting at a slower pace or actively cooling it you should not see erosion.

[1jonzmith]

Ring,

I'll add my thanks to mike's. Those are good links you posted. Your response was exactly what I wanted and obviously the forum benefited from your input. As I said :If you disagree, by all means, please share the issues with me and everybody."

Thank you,

John

[1jonzmith]

Rino,

Perhaps not knowing me better, you might have thought I was being "coy" when I referred to a barrel maker as my source. I wasn't. I repeated what he told me accurately as far as I know but he made those statements in the privacy of a personal communication and till he gives me his permission to quote him in public his comments will be off the books. That's just plain ethical behavior and personal consideration. I will get back to him and see if I missed something, get his permission, and then I will re post on the subject to satisfy only you. No one else became accusatory and others just provided the informative contradicting info for which I asked. I must not be the only shooting enthusiast that has gotten what appears to be information that is at odds with the common wisdom.

FYI and hopefully to shatter your seeming abject lack of faith in barrel manufacturer's integrity in general: I was asking the mfr. to nitride my new $450 barrel. He assured me they offered that service, quoted a price and a delivery time for my barrel. The delay was less than two weeks and not an issue. He also knew that it was probable I would ream the lands to adjust my free-bore at a later date. He also obviously knew that I was having a 6mm BR Norma chambered and that that particular round is not a barrel burner and i could expect a 4 or 5 thousand round life span( I am told). Who would want to stretch that to 8? I'll be dead and gone long before the event.

Adding to my confusion, I know a shooter and smith that is familiar to this forum that has 9 barrels made by this Mfr. I make that out to be $3,600 invested and that doesn't include shipping. Given this man's success and that he can purchase anything out there, barrel wise, he must have faith in the Mfr. Also he doesn't have all his barrels nitrided but I haven't inquired why some aren't. What I did conclude was that I certainly didn't have "all" the information. I didn't think that I was coming across anything but humble in this. I am a virtuous man and it is my humility of which I am most proud, as virtues go. Get it? ??? :o ::) :D

Thank you for sharing all that Rino,

John

[Ring31]

ahhhh.... all i said was "tests disagree with that.." and posted said tests... not to mention all the big name mfg's that have run there own long term tests, like S&W, SIG, LWRC.....

i didnt make any commenents about you or what u said..

is nitriding a barrel that allready has a good life cartrige needed?... nope...

but nitrading does more then just that...

just compare facts, not opinions...

+
increase in bbl life
increase in hardness
increase in lubrisaty
increase in corosion resistance


-
u can rechamber or set back the chamber
like any other finish, if not done by people that know what they are doing, it can be bad
cost is 50 to 200$

[358Hammer]

Not disrespecting anyone with this analogy but find it representative.

I grew up on a farm/ranch and driving cows and horses. If one got the first cow or horse into the water the next animals until the entire herd would follow.
40 years of smithing and wildcatting gave me a education on how other people do whatever it is they do. Thousands of people for decades have AI'ed cartridges because in some cases there is a noticable increase in speed and one can use factory ammo if available. It was my experience more times than not that there wasn't enough velocity increase for the expense of the rechamber.
I never liked the look of the 3006AI or 35Whelan AI long neck. Some 20 years after I started I learned that Rocky Gibbs did not like P.O.'s 40 degree shoulder because in some of the calibers internal pressures built up before the desired velocities were acheive. I went the Gibbs route 20 years ago and a 35 degree should except in the minicoop series they have a 30 degree shoulder.

Just because all these people are doing it doesn't make it the right way.

On the first 4 Benchmark barrels I found NO fouling of any kind in the barrels. SO I presumed since there wasn't any, I had the next 5 barrels
Nitrided prior to me ever touching it. One of those barrels I purchased from a Vender without ever seeing the barrel and it was a Savage takeoff in 300RUM so according to the Vender only factory shot was put through the barrel. When I received this cut down and braked barrel the first 3 shot group was .1 and every 3 shot group thereafter was in the .1-.2 area without exception.

SInce I am a machinist and have been in this industry for 40 years I am sure I qualify as somewhat knowledgable person. Everyone has an opinion about something. Just like the times people told me I could or could not or should not do something because there wasn't a presedence. I wouldn't be shooting a 458 Lott, 510 Rogue or a 338 Edge out of a handgun platform. But after building the 510 Rogue there was a very large thread with the title,( when is big too big) Then I put the Edge in a Striker and other back yard opinion literally came out of the wood work stating the Savage action could not safely handle the pressure. That I needed to purchase a $1200. action build to handle the big cartridge. The following year Savage released the 338 Lapua which has an even larger diameter case than the Edge and that pretty much made the nay- sayers quit talking.

Because of Nitriding I quit smoking bullets into puffs of lead at 4800fps in a 3 groove 224 minicoop (NO Breakin) and added another 400fps to the cartridge/barrel combination. I built a 6.5 WSM improved that has awesome accuracy after a 1000+ rounds down the tube.
Though I have never purchased one of these barrels I do know that for decades people purchased barrels from 2 or 3 barrel makers and it sometimes took a hundred rounds to break a barrel in. Before the copper quit flaking out of the bore. By all means, these need to be smoothed up before Nitriding.

This is my opinion based on experience to be used as information and NOT for anger

Neal

[1jonzmith]

NOOOOOOO NOOOO,

I misspoke. In my previous post I THANKED YOU FOR A MOST APPROPRIATE RESPONSE. I haven't changed my mind on that...truly. I typed Ringo when I meant to type RINO. I still luv ya Ringo....it is Rino that is still "iffy".

My apologies again,

John





ahhhh.... all i said was "tests disagree with that.." and posted said tests... not to mention all the big name mfg's that have run there own long term tests, like S&W, SIG, LWRC.....

i didnt make any commenents about you or what u said..

is nitriding a barrel that allready has a good life cartrige needed?... nope...

but nitrading does more then just that...

just compare facts, not opinions...

+
increase in bbl life
increase in hardness
increase in lubrisaty
increase in corosion resistance


-
u can rechamber or set back the chamber
like any other finish, if not done by people that know what they are doing, it can be bad
cost is 50 to 200$

[1jonzmith]

No, I went back and reread my post.....I got it right. I wasn't talking to you Ringo.


Neil,

That last qualifier for nitriding "rough" barrels AFTER break-in is much appreciated. The nitriders I spoke with said that they could do it "after" without problem.

You mentioned two different nitriding processes that you have used...can you clarify the differences in performance. I know I am interested and I think others are also.

John

[Ring31]

No, I went back and reread my post.....I got it right. I wasn't talking to you Ringo.


Neil,

That last qualifier for nitriding "rough" barrels AFTER break-in is much appreciated. The nitriders I spoke with said that they could do it "after" without problem.

You mentioned two different nitriding processes that you have used...can you clarify the differences in performance. I know I am interested and I think others are also.

John



read my full review here...
https://sites.google.com/site/freeballisticcalculator/black-nitride-melonite-and-qpq

[1jonzmith]

Ring,

I hadn't seen any of the videos you provided links for. They are all superb and I thank you for them. I am sold completely on this process. My only reservations have been treating a "new" and unbroken-in barrel and treating one that you expect to re-bore the chamber or set back the lands. I still think it is safer to wait to do both but apparently...that's just me. Neil, with the unimpeachable results he gets from his guns is the hands down horses mouth "source".

Thanks again Ring...sincerely

John

[Ring31]

if u plan on doing it, do it in the fist 60 to 100 rounds down the tube... u "shouldn't " do it to a old barrel... here is Y..

a new match grade barrel that is lapped and has no need to be broke in, but the throat will need broke in from the chamber cut, this can be fixed in the 1st 60 shots.
if u nitride this before the throat is broke in, it will never break in, BUT, that dont mean it still wont shoot great.

do it to a old gun, or a gun with 100+ down it, and u "can" make that barrel less accurate... how?.. well if you have fired it enough to start to induce fire cracking in the bore, the heat of the nitrideding process's "can" cause that to get worse.

also, NEVER nitride a chrome bore... unless u like a 4moa gun...

[rinodods]

I meant no offense. With more facts from the story I can see why he might have pushed you away form the process. You had a very good reason not to go there and the maker was probably right to say so. It seemed as though your post indicated nitride is never a great idea and that is what I was pointing at. I applaud your restraint in not posting this persons name all over the net. All I suggested was specifics to clarify what you were saying. You've done an awesome job with that. I meant my post more in jest than anything which as I read it again didn't come across so well. I apologize if I came off as negative. No offense intended.



Rino,

Perhaps not knowing me better, you might have thought I was being "coy" when I referred to a barrel maker as my source. I wasn't. I repeated what he told me accurately as far as I know but he made those statements in the privacy of a personal communication and till he gives me his permission to quote him in public his comments will be off the books. That's just plain ethical behavior and personal consideration. I will get back to him and see if I missed something, get his permission, and then I will re post on the subject to satisfy only you. No one else became accusatory and others just provided the informative contradicting info for which I asked. I must not be the only shooting enthusiast that has gotten what appears to be information that is at odds with the common wisdom.

FYI and hopefully to shatter your seeming abject lack of faith in barrel manufacturer's integrity in general: I was asking the mfr. to nitride my new $450 barrel. He assured me they offered that service, quoted a price and a delivery time for my barrel. The delay was less than two weeks and not an issue. He also knew that it was probable I would ream the lands to adjust my free-bore at a later date. He also obviously knew that I was having a 6mm BR Norma chambered and that that particular round is not a barrel burner and i could expect a 4 or 5 thousand round life span( I am told). Who would want to stretch that to 8? I'll be dead and gone long before the event.

Adding to my confusion, I know a shooter and smith that is familiar to this forum that has 9 barrels made by this Mfr. I make that out to be $3,600 invested and that doesn't include shipping. Given this man's success and that he can purchase anything out there, barrel wise, he must have faith in the Mfr. Also he doesn't have all his barrels nitrided but I haven't inquired why some aren't. What I did conclude was that I certainly didn't have "all" the information. I didn't think that I was coming across anything but humble in this. I am a virtuous man and it is my humility of which I am most proud, as virtues go. Get it? ??? :o ::) :D

Thank you for sharing all that Rino,

John

[Ring31]

Ok, just got off the phone with H&M, www.blacknitide.com ...

the owner of the company is not super interested in a "price list" only for the fact, he dont want to do 100's of 1 piece orders... so the owner still wants the "lot" charge of 200 min.
But Shade, the General Manager wants the extra business..

So.. This is what he told me to tell you guys...

Min lot charge is 200$

A FULL gun, including ALL the little parts, "trigger parts, bolt parts, barrel, gas tube, gas block, 1 mag".. Pistol or rifle, 200$

Just a barreled action, no bolt, 100

AR barrel ONLY 50$

Pistol slide 20$

He mentioned mags, but i forgot the $$$ :(

Now this is the biggie.. he said ANY of you guys that call, if you mention that you read this on this forum, and tell him "Russ" ..Me.. sent you, he is more then happy to swing a better deal, "cough.. lower lot charge..chough.." ;) you will need to contact him to discuss that..
If you are a gunsmith, and want to send regular work to him, let him know, he will be glad to work with you..

Also a reminder, ALL parts need to be dissembled BEFORE you send it in, barreled actions DONOT NEED to be taking apart, but not a bad idea if you can.

ZERO parts with springs can be sent in, the heat will destroy the spring..

[1jonzmith]

I meant no offense. With more facts from the story I can see why he might have pushed you away form the process. You had a very good reason not to go there and the maker was probably right to say so. It seemed as though your post indicated nitride is never a great idea and that is what I was pointing at. I applaud your restraint in not posting this persons name all over the net. All I suggested was specifics to clarify what you were saying. You've done an awesome job with that. I meant my post more in jest than anything which as I read it again didn't come across so well. I apologize if I came off as negative. No offense intended.


Rino,

This was an exceptional post. Thank you for clearing the air and I am glad you did so.

Thank you,

John

[macds]

ZERO parts with springs can be sent in, the heat will destroy the spring..



Hmm, i think i brought the idea of heat up quite some time ago...
Darn it, maybe i should just machine up a quick detach scope mount, send the barreled action for nitride, slap the scope mount back on, and see what she does (as far as poi) Im dang curious to see what changes in the barrel itself due to the heat. Sure youre making the guts hard as heck, but is there concentricity issues from the heat..
Maybe better yet.... could someone put a barrel between centres, record run out (on the od), then send for nitride, and report back?

Best regards to all!

Stu

[hunter2]

It will be a while but I will try to do that if the action ever comes in. Going to shoot it 20 times and then send it off. But it is not a savage barrel or action. Defiance action and bartlein progressive twist barrel in 375 CHEYTAC. Will not have it before November. Almost 3 years from start to finish. 13 months for the barrel, 6 months for suppressor with barrel contoured, the rest waiting on the action. The present administration has done wonders for the gun industry...

[1jonzmith]

Rino,

I recently saw vids and read that the Nit. finish will reduce the temp of your barrel when shooting and "add" velocity. Apparently it is slipperier as well as harder.I might be repeating this but didn't someone mention that the military was switching from chrome finished barrels to nitride treated? That is a heck of a selling point, if true.

Thanks,

John

[CRaTXn]

Has anyone nitrided a .243 or 6.5x284 and seen it's real NOT conjectured barrel life? And I don't mean some torture test where all the rounds are fired in a day with long strings? This commercial application of the nitriding process and the resultant thread appears to be roughly 18 months old... so only competitive shooters would reasonably put enough rounds down range in that short of a time period to reach barrel Valhalla. Throat life (for isn't that really what we call barrel life) for us good ole boy MOR [minute-of-rock] and bambi hunters s/b greater than someone shooting strings before the conditions change...hum....buy a Savage, buy an after market pre chambered barrel, buy a barrel wrench, KISS ! Last conjecture was six months ago...hum. What do they say in the movies; "Show me the money" "The truth, you can't handle the truth".
Somewhere Between Ignorance & Arrogance,
CR
PS With a little cost accounting in my background, I suggest we factor in: the cost in cleaning materials & labor, disassembly - reassembly man-hours/gunsmithing, new load workup, resighting-in ammo costs, fuel & depreciation & tolls driving all these errands around , postage-FedX-UPS, insurance, time value to money...

[joe0121]

FWIW I had a Remington action and a Stevens action done recently. The remington action want back into the pillar beded McMillan A5 just fine. The Stevens was a build in progress so I bedded it once I got the parts together so I can say. I do know on the Remy I had to polish the trigger pins and the savage sear pin was noticably tighter. Action are smooth as silk and havnt blown up in my face yet. (308 and 300 wm). I was told as far as break in for the barrel goes the fewer the rounds the better. Stevens has a cheap ER Shaw barrel the Remy has a Krieger with 1200 rounds through it. Both are stainless and I decided to not have them nitrited. Next build is a 338 magnum of some sort and you can bet once it's chambered, muzzle break installed it's coming back apart and off to mmi.

[calib]

i havent read all 16 pages, but would i be better off sending a muzzle braked barreled action in all together to have treated or no?

[yorketransport]

i havent read all 16 pages, but would i be better off sending a muzzle braked barreled action in all together to have treated or no?

Since you're in WA, call Benchmark Barrels in Arlington. They could probably give you the best answers.

Andrew