Nitride the barrel

[mscott71]

It was mentioned elsewhere that not all actions are heat treated to the same degree. Obviously that could cause problems with some actions since the nitriding process get up toward 1000 degrees.

[ESSCEE]

Anyone know what temp Savage actions are heat treated too? if they are all the same or did some years or models differ? should we be worried about sending our actions or not? I think Neal has some actions done maybe we will hear from him on this.

[358Hammer]

Not everyone is doing the same thing at the same temperature.
However, one would have to cook a Savage action @ 1500 degrees for some hours to take the hardness out of the action. No one to my knowledge comes close to this heat nor time in bath.
I can see where a business man would decline to accept responsibility for hardening (Nitriding) an action when he knows that certain protocol was followed by different manufacturers for hardening their actions. Savage, Remington and whomever is building an action sends their actions out for stress testing to assure us as the purchaser the action is safe. Once a heat treater dips he assumes the responsibility.

Some of us have punched actions before and after Nitriding with little effect or change after Nitriding. One of my actions (Savage was done at 1200 degrees for an hour before they quenched it at 750 in oil. It was 69R on the outside and 39R under the Nitride. It was 42 R prior to treatment. Fred has done a whole lot more than I with Savages so he would be better on the hardness thing. I know from punching 6 Actions for hardness the front of the action or receiver end of the action ran between 40-43R and the rear bridge ran 39-41R.

I know that Savage does not stress relieve with heat or fluid because my actions moved when I had it done to them. I had to relieve bedding and open up the screw holes a few thou because the action did not fit in the stock when I got it back without forcing it in by hand. SO I am going to guess that Savage uses electricity to harden their actions.
Neal

[SuperChuck]

Is this process equally applicable to CM or SS barrels/actions?

SC

[snipecatcher]

Not everyone is doing the same thing at the same temperature.
However, one would have to cook a Savage action @ 1500 degrees for some hours to take the hardness out of the action. No one to my knowledge comes close to this heat nor time in bath.
I can see where a business man would decline to accept responsibility for hardening (Nitriding) an action when he knows that certain protocol was followed by different manufacturers for hardening their actions. Savage, Remington and whomever is building an action sends their actions out for stress testing to assure us as the purchaser the action is safe. Once a heat treater dips he assumes the responsibility.

Some of us have punched actions before and after Nitriding with little effect or change after Nitriding. One of my actions (Savage was done at 1200 degrees for an hour before they quenched it at 750 in oil. It was 69R on the outside and 39R under the Nitride. It was 42 R prior to treatment. Fred has done a whole lot more than I with Savages so he would be better on the hardness thing. I know from punching 6 Actions for hardness the front of the action or receiver end of the action ran between 40-43R and the rear bridge ran 39-41R.

I know that Savage does not stress relieve with heat or fluid because my actions moved when I had it done to them. I had to relieve bedding and open up the screw holes a few thou because the action did not fit in the stock when I got it back without forcing it in by hand. SO I am going to guess that Savage uses electricity to harden their actions.
Neal


Have you had bolts/firing pins, etc harden along with the actions? Let's say I want the whole thing done. I assume I should take the barrel off, take the trigger assembly off the action, remove bolt, and remove all springs. Should I put the stripped action, along with bolt body, firing pin, and lugs in a bag? Just wondering what small parts should be (or can be) done. I'm definitely going to get my new 6.5x55 barrel done after I fire 20 rounds or so through it, but still on the fence about whether or not to do the action (does the bluing need to be removed?)
Regards,
-Dan

[ESSCEE]

Superchuck
I asked this same question on a previous thread and Neal said it works for both, and you cant tell a difference if you started with SS or CM it all turns out the same.

[358Hammer]

Re: Nitride the barrel
« Reply #56 on: May 06, 2011, 10:20:21 PM » Quote Modify Remove

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are there any special preparation details needed for other parts, barrel nuts, muzzle brakes, fittted parts?
If there is bluing it must be removed. Toilet bowl cleaner works well with a fine steel wool.

I have the action done to our two serious hunters because the metal will in no way rust. The bolt also works like a dream when opening and closing.

5-10-11 6:30 a.m.

I personally have reservations with having firing pins,springs,trigger assemblies heated or re-heated so will not do anything to these other than wipe them clean. Bolt bodies and handles I will do if I feel like it.

Neal

[snipecatcher]

Thank you Neal. I believe I'll just have the barrel, stripped action, and bolt body done. Now to pick up some toilet bowl cleaner...
Regards,
-Dan

[SuperChuck]

Thanks, I thought I had seen that somewhere, but could not re-find it to confirm.



Superchuck
I asked this same question on a previous thread and Neal said it works for both, and you cant tell a difference if you started with SS or CM it all turns out the same.

[snipecatcher]

Just talked to Bobby at Freedom Gunworks. He quoted me:

Barrel: $75
Action/with components (recoil lug/bolt body, etc.): $75
Return shipping: ~$20

He said they had to go up a bit on price because when they ship an order to MMI, they have to insure for about $10k, and shipping rates/insurance etc. have gone up. That's understandable, and $75 is still a good deal if it gives me twice the barrel life. He was helpful on the phone and I look forward to sending him my business.
Regards,
-Dan

[mattri]

Been kicking around the idea of a 6mm Rem AI but have heard horror stories of 500 round barrels so this is a very interesting subject.

[snowgetter1]

Just got my 243 wssm back yesterday. Total of 4-5weeks to get it back to my door. The finish looks great, kind of a tactical flat black look, and is extremely smooth. The chamber appears to be very smooth also. Not sure when I will get to shoot it yet.

[AZchemist]

Has anyone gotten a barrel salt-dipped through Benchmark without having fired it in first? They lap the cutter marks/burrs off the chamber before sending the barrel off and say the barrel doesn't need to broken in first. I believe them based on their reputation but I'm looking for some first hand info.

[Harriershot]

To 358Hammer, according to your experiences, the action does move some after nitriding, so my question is, does it matter if you do a time and true before or after nitriding?

Thanks
Charlie

[358Hammer]

AZ-
First time I did the Nitriding without shooting first I was extremely puckered. It was a Savage 300RUM barrel ( unfired). This barrel shoots with my Benchmark barrels and shoots all loads .250 or less and has since the first group.
I have a number of barrels now that were sent in unfired condition and they all are oneholers!

Charlie

I can not say where the movement will be. Savage does not stress relieve actions. Facing the legth of the action as in truing is not going to change things much by Nitriding in my opinion. But when you apply heat she will move some! This would be a catch 22 as No one is going to want to eat tooling truing.

Exception to last Statement! MMI/ Nitride is only .001-.002 thick as opposed to others I have had do this process and they are .003-.004. I had to punch the top porting holes in my 375 RUM brake after Nitride a couple weeks ago. The holes were .200 and I simply used a high speed bit! Three of them for six holes. If one uses carbide and you tell the guy ahead of time what he is up against one should have no problems. It took the first two bits for the first two holes ( learning Curve). Coming out the other side of the material is different than going in for some reason.

Please don't forget to tell the smith ahead of time and give him the option of declining or at least speaking with me as he will be really angry if he finds out about the 70R hardness on his own!
Neal

[philkryder]

...
Please don't forget to tell the smith ahead of time and give him the option of declining or at least speaking with me as he will be really angry if he finds out about the 70R hardness on his own!
Neal


Mr. Hammer - the issue I see is that if you T&T before Nitride of receiver, you will have you have the potential for "movement."

If you T&T after nitride, you have the tooling issues AND you loose the Nitride effects of corrosion resistance AND hardening on both the LUG and LUG engagement areas in the receiver?

So, would it be possible to
1) stress relieve
2) T&T
3) Nitride
or
1) Nitride
2) T&T
3) ??Re-Nitride??

someone suggested none of this is "needed"
but
it seems "useful."

Have you done both T&T and Nitride on receivers and bolt lugs or all 3 of the above?
and
with what results?

thanks
Phil

[358Hammer]

Phil
I quit T&T ing actions years ago as I saw no need in most cases. Just like many, many years ago I quit measuring every bullet,case,kernal of powder during a stint in the benchrest game.

If one is in the accuracy game to win something then I suppose one may want to do everything possible to elliminate any chance of an error or tighten up that group. Personally I have a bunch of barrels that literally shoot into one hole. I am a hunter only so these barrels do what I need and then some.

The action that moved was T&T a long time ago, then Nitrided when I ran across the process a year ago. Understanding the principles of stress relieving simply put," the material returns to a neutral state". All of my Benchmark barrels are stress relieved as a natural course of events after machining. Nitriding was done afterwards so a neutral state was achieved prior to Nitride.

Nitriding for me served two purposes specifically.
1. Fastest per caliber barrels in any caliber anywhere.
2. A whole lot cheaper finish and impervious barrel anywhere.

A side benefit: I have always liked quality blued barrels for their warm appearance. Stainless is stainless unless one wants to spend the bucks to paint stainless.

Is this worth it? For me T&T is not relevant any longer. You have to decided for your self!

Neal

[taylorwkrs]

Lots of interesting discussion, but what are the specific "in the field" outcomes of the benefits of this process?

taylorwkrs

[snowgetter1]

Finally got to put some rounds down the nitride 243 wssm today. Velocity looks amazing at 3900 fps with 49gr 760 and 70 gr Sierra HPBT and 3350 with 95 gr Berger with 44gr 760. This is a 28" shillen barrel. Accuracy remained the same with .75-.50 at 100. Probally could be better but I was rushed and never really shoot one hole groups anyway. I am pleased.

[Ring31]

did my 243wssm Dtech a few weeks ago.. "schillen match"

when u get it back, 2 things MUST be done...

1 clean the snot out of the barrel... if you have JB bore past use that...

2 clean/polish the chamber... "this i didnt do..." the extraction was SO HARD on my 1st shot the case stuck in the chamber and i had to tap it out with a rod.. and the extractor nearly tore the side of the case off...
for the next 4 shots it got better and better..

EDIT: this was sent to MMI