7.62 X 25 build "Q"'s

[red caddy]

Ever since I bought my first CZ-52 I've had an itch to build a bolt gun for this snappy little pistol round. I've worn out my search button and I know this has been done before, but havent found much in the way of "nuts and bolts" information on how to go about the build. Now I need a little more in depth input from the smart pigs.

What action should I start with? I have access to a 110 in .270 but I don't know enough about the various Savage actions availible. (I would think any action that would handle a .223 length would work)

Can I buy a threaded barrel chambered for the 7.62 X 25 or is this a custom made kind of deal?

What do you guys think of the idea of fitting a pistol magazine? (It might be easier to do this than to try to get this short little round to feed from the factory mag well)


I know the questions are bretty basic, I'm just trying to do my homework before I start makin' chips. I'd appreciate any and all advise, and , as usual, also welcome the smart a** remarks as well. Thanks, Paul.

[dcloco]

Search on this site...somebody just built...a off the beaten path caliber on a Savage action. Sorry..my memory is rather short tonight...has been a long week.

[savageboy]

Dolomite Supafly built a .45acp build

[dolomite_supafly]

I have also built a 7.62x25 and used it to shoot HEAVY stuff at subsonic velocities. It was REALLY quiet and VERY accurate with certain loads.

Do a search, I don't have a lot of posts here yet so it should be easy to find. I'm in a time crunch at the moment. If I get a chance later I'll post links.

Dolomite

ETA:
Here are some links to my Tokarev build:
http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,24552.msg178031.html#msg178031
http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,23066.msg170179.html#msg170179

A few things I don't think I mentioned in these posts is that the bolt head needs to be opened up to .393 from .378. I used a dremel and never had any problems. The other thing is that You can use either a 30 Mauser reamer or a Tokarev reamer. The Tokarev reamer is harder to find and is only .001" smaller than the Mauser so the Mauser will work in a pinch. I have used both and the Tokarev chamber is easier on the brass than the Mauser chamber. Also, flipping or removing the ejector makes fundtioning a little easier. If you don't then the cases come off the bolt face up inside of the receiver and you have to dig to get it out. By flipping it I can just grab it off the bolt face without having to dig up inside the receiver for the empties.

Here are a few pictures of the rounds in case someone missed my post from a few months ago.
Here is a 168grain SMK loading compared to a 45 ACP when I was still using surplus cases:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Savage/S5000149.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Savage/S5000151.jpg

If you have any questions feel free to ask.

[red caddy]

OK, after a bunch of searching, I've learned that I should start with a Short action, Savage or Stevens, the preferred bolt head would be the .223. More questions:

1) how do I recognize a short action ? what model(s) ?

2) What models would allow me to upgrade to the accutrigger ?

3) what size barrel shank ? what choices do I have ? what are the pro's and con's ?

4) The 7.62 X 25 TOK chamber reamer (though harder to find) is the right one to use for longest brass life?

5) A centerfeed drop box magazine, already installed in the weapon I start with would be the feed system of choice ?

6) A .308 bore, heavy varmint taper, 24 inch would be a good place to start ?


Thanks for the help, Paul.

[sinman]

I do not know much about the 7.62x25 but I will try to help.

#1, Short action Savages use 2 digits like 10,11,12,14,16 and long actions use 110,111,112,114,116. Older model Savages had 3 digit model numbers but you will want to look at the newer ones anyways, ill explain later.

#2 any of them will allow trigger upgrade

#3 I would go small shank just because they are more common, you have large and small shank, cons of the large shank is its harder to find barrels and most are wsm, rum, or target actions neither of the first ones would be good choices for your your build.

#5 I would start with a 223 centerfeed rifle just to help with feeding and less parts to change.

#6 Defiantly a 308 bore but 24" is very long for a pistol caliber, I would look at 16-20" in a varmint or bull

[dolomite_supafly]

I do not know much about the 7.62x25 but I will try to help.


#6 Defiantly a 308 bore but 24" is very long for a pistol caliber, I would look at 16-20" in a varmint or bull


My build used a 24.5" barrel and shot the pistol stuff just fine for surplus. It was a 10 twist barrel with a 1" straight taper. Not sure what the longer barrel did to the velocity of the surplus stuff but it did help keep the subsonic stuff quieter than it would have with a shorter barrel.

Dolomite

[red caddy]

Gentlemen, thanks for the help.

Alrighty then, I'm officially searching the shops for a mod 10, 12, in .223 centerfeed drop mag.

1) Is there an existing barrel (easier to find used) that can be cut off, set back and re chambered to '25 TOK ?

Primary use for this piece is varmint/pest eradication, with millsurp. ( I have 2 tuna cans of the hot subgun stuff) but I want to experiment with sabot's and 65-70 Gr homemade hollow points, looking for a more explosive, shallow penatrating, fragmenting varmint round.

2) I selected the 24 inch heavy varmint taper to squeez the best accuracy out of the 85 Gr. Is this the best choice? The extra weight forward would be nice for offhand and bench, but a 18-20 inch light sporter taper would make for a very light weight, scout rifle type rig. Your thoughts on accuracy with the light barrel, please.

3) The 85 Gr. millsurp runs ~1550 FPS out of my CZ-52 so I'm expecting upwards of 1900 from a longer barrel. Perhaps as much as 2500 with the 55 Gr. sabot. Is this realistic?

4) Given the intended use, is a 1 in 7 twist too fast? What would be optimum with the 85 Gr.?

5) Given the ballistics of the round, what's your best guess for accuracy with the 85 Gr. from each barrel type discussed? ( My CZ-52 will cut 3 MOA from a rest with S&B, slightly better with the subgun millsurp)

Thanks very much for the help. (when I start to be a PITA, please let me know)

[sinman]

Hand gun rounds are made to burn up their powder inside the barrel of a handgun so having one 24" long will gain nothing in velocity and maybe even loose some. This round might be made to shoot out of a 10" barrel so you are probably not going to gain anything in speed going with a long tube. I would do probably an 18-20 varmint/heavy varmint contour as it will have more of a solid feel of a bench and still be light enough to shoot off hand. And there would be no factory Savage barrels that you could rechamber.

[dolomite_supafly]

Here is the barrel I used for my build:
http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=593050&chrSuperSKU=&MC=&CatID=&mySort= The twist is 10 and the bore is .308 which is what is correct for the 7.62x25. For the money they can't be beat. They look like hell when they arrive but every one we have used has been at least MOA. They are rough on the outside but the bores were perfect and once you do the outside machining you can't tell what they looked like.

My Savage build shot less than MOA with the subsonic loads I worked up. With surplus ammo it would shoot around 2" at 25 yards if I remember right. I can say that even with a 24" barrel that shooting surplus is still LOUD.

My build was envisioned to be able shoot subsonic loads, like 300 whisper only cheaper. The dies are cheaper, brass is available and you can go to any show and buy surplus ammo in a pinch. Can't do that with the Whisper. To me it seemed like a better choice in a bolt gun than the Whisper just from an economic standpoint. You can't load the heavier stuff to the higher velocities like you can with the Whisper because of the reduced case capacity but other than that it was great. With lightweight handloads I worked up using 110 grain Varmint rounds I was able to get over 1700fps and be MOA accurate.

One of the better loads would burn all powder in the first 4" of barrel according to a program a friend of mine uses for load developement. This load produced no flash and very little noise and was accurate. It used Longshot powder and 180 grain bullets. I have done testing with Longshot, Clays, HS-6, Varget, Trailboss as well as a few Vitavouri powders. Trailboss is the easiest to load but has some consistency issues, HS-6 and Longshot are the most consistent. Clays is EXTREMELY quiet but is really hard on the brass, lossening the primer pockets.

When I had the barrel fitted I was charged less than $200 for all machining. I had it done in a 1" straight taper with the muzzle threaded 1/2-28.

I have a 16" AR built for the round also, it is blowback similar to a 9mm setup. Out of a 16" barrel surplus 7.62x25 reached 1800+FPS and has a pretty wicked muzzle blast. The barrel was made out of a Armalite stainless 10 twist I had. Here are a few pics of the AR setup:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/S5000227.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/S5000238.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/S5000223.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/S5000229.jpg
It uses a CZ26 machine gun mag and a modified Hahn magblock. The ramp was made by me out of delrin.

If you plan on using a magazine then you need to decide if you are going to primarily shoot surplus or long heavy stuff. If you are only going to use stock length rounds then look at the CZ26 mags or PPsH43 mags. If you are going to use longer rounds then you can use a magazine that is designed for a regular 223 without too many issues. Shoot me a message I might be able to help you out with some stuff I have left over if you want. I can also help out with load data if you want when you get setup.

If they would make decent defense ammo as well as a modern platform to fire it I think it would be a very popular round for defense. Out of a pistol it WILL defeat soft 2A armor consistently and will often defeat 3A when using FMJ.

If you have any more questions feel free to ask. I would be glad to help you get it up and running because it is a fun little round.

Dolomite

[red caddy]

Dolomite, WOW, your last post is a goldmine of just the kind of help I was seeking when I came to this board. (I'm not a big fan of the AR platform, I bet my life on the M-16 and the A-1, a long time ago, in a land far away... BUT, I very much admire the ability and craftsmanship shown in your build.)

1) Will that barrel from GPC support the small shank dimentions? (I spent an hour searching and I still don't know the thread size and length)

2) For a reasonable investment, I could have an 18 " heavy bull barrel and a 24" fluted light varmint taper... If you were going to make multiple barrels using the above blanks,(actually, interchangeability is the main reason I chose a Savage SA for this build.) what taper and length would you choose ? Why ?

3) I can't view your profile or use the PM system yet, (I have to snail mail the kitty, LOL) but I'm pretty sure you can see mine. Contact me if you wish, or I can wait 'till I'm a paid member to get with you on the leftovers and such.

Again, many thanks for the time and information. Paul.