How exactly to build a Savage 20 vartarg?

[mattri]

Looking to build a 20 vartarg using a Savage Target action.

Who to look at for a barrel?

Which dies do I need? A set of dies for a 221 Fireball and a bushing to neck the brass down to .204 correct? What exactly is this bushing (I understand the principle) where do I get it- a part # or picture would be great. Onve the brass is sized do I keep using the bushing to re-sixe the neck or someone make 20 vartarg dies?

What else do I need to know? Lots of newb questions- just trying to sort it all out.

[sinman]

A vartarg is easy I have made tons of barrels for them, as long as you don't want a repeater. And use 223 or 221fb, 17 fb brass

[mattri]

Do they make the target action in a repeater- I thought they were just singles?

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Makes no difference what type action you use, repeater or single shot. If you use a repeater, just add a single shot follower or sled and you're ready to go.

[trappst]

No need for really pricey dies. Hornady makes a two die set that will form cases in a single pass. Add the micrometer top to the seating die and you're golden.

If you've got the cash, seriously consider Pac-Nor for the barrel.

[Appleseed]

My dies were hornady, and I would NOT recommend them for that caliber. Hornady replaced the extractor and collet once, it still wasn't right. The threads aren't cut well and when necking down the brass, it will strip the collet threads or flatten those on the exstractor. Finally sent mine to be fixed to a machinist listed on 6mmbr site. Dies were $70, plus another $50 fix, plus the neck bushing, $12. They worked fine then, but a better set was about the same cost less the trouble and wait. I used .221fb brass, one pass.

[laportecharlie]

When I started to form 20 Vartarg brass I bought the Redding three die set which included a body size die, a bushing neck size die and a micrometer seating die. Then I found that I also needed a full length size die to get cases formed correctly. I don't even want to discuss how much all that cost me. If there is a cheaper way to get correctly formed cases I would take that route in a New York minute.
Charlie

[weewilly]

My Hornady dies with Imperial lube worked fine for forming 221 cases to Vartarg. Only problem with the Hornady dies, and I have read about this before, sizes neck smaller than needed,and works the cases more than I like. I use Wilson bushing dies to size fired cases with and Hornady seater.

[range rat]

When I started to form 20 Vartarg brass I bought the Redding three die set which included a body size die, a bushing neck size die and a micrometer seating die. Then I found that I also needed a full length size die to get cases formed correctly.
Charlie


Thanks for the tip. I was gonna post that question. The full length Redding set it is. Ya know, I do have a Forster 204 Ruger bushing neck die I don't use. I'll chop it off get the proper bushing and I'll be good to go. If anyone is interested,My new McGowen 20VT barrel has a .230 dia neck.... I hear the problem with Hornady dies is they overwork the brass by necking it down smaller than it needs on the down stroke,then drag the expander ball back through on the up stroke to open it back up. All this stretching back and forth causes work hardening and results in split necks.

[MDHOGGER]

I recently got my first 20VarTag built on a CZ527 rifle. I am no expert but this is what I have learned. Take your new brass and uniform the primer pockets and debur the flash hole. My new brass has a OD neck diameter of .249" and average neck wall thickness of .012" to .0125" I have the Hornady 20VarTag New Dimension Full Length Die Set and the Redding Type S Bushing Neck Die Set. As people have said it is usually best to form your cases with a full length die that will set the shoulder. I also have a .232 chamber neck. First you want to size your brass to chamber with a firm bolt closure. Do this by initially removing the expander/decapper assembly from the Hornady full length die. You do this to avoid having to pull the expander in and out the test case neck till you have the die set up correctly. Start with the die a 1/4 turn off the shell holder and size a piece of brass then try to chamber the case. If it won't chamber turn the die in some more. If it chambers initially start the die further off the shell holder to begin. Once you have the die set up for firm bolt closure re-install the expander/decapper assembly and go about sizing your cases.

When you neck/form down the case necks they will get thicker. My grew from approx. .0125" to .015" thick. My loaded rounds measure approx. .230" and my chamber is .232" which gives a minimal .002" overall neck clearance. As far as the Hornady dies over sizing the case necks I get a dimension of .219" without the expander assembly installed. That is a over sizing of the neck from a fired dimension of .232"-.219"= .013" That is why people use the bushing dies to control the amount of sizing of the necks. Redding suggests using a bushing .001 under loaded round neck diameter or in my situation with a loaded round diameter of .230" use a .229" bushing. I have also got into the habit annealing cases that I formed to another caliber or have fired a number of times. I find it makes bullet release more uniform and velocity spreads less improving accuracy.

Here is a video of my annealing jig I built. I paint the Templaq heat indicator in two different temperatures. I paint the 450 degree form the shoulder neck juncture down the case body. You do not want the temp. to get above this reading too far down the case body or it will weaken the brass. I use the 650 degree painted down the case neck to the shoulder juncture which will heat the brass enough to anneal the brass the correct amount. I only paint a half dozen cases to get the timing correct. I use the quart clock in the background and watch the second hand for the timing. This method for me leads to very uniform annealed cases. This is not my annealing tool that works of the primer pocket.

http://i558.photobucket.com/albums/ss27/mdman54/Reloading/th_AnnealingToolTakeII_0001.jpg (http://s558.photobucket.com/albums/ss27/mdman54/Reloading/?action=view&current=AnnealingToolTakeII_0001.mp4)

[mattri]

Thanks for the great replies.

What I've ben reading other places is that people are using a forming die like this
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=157169
to resize the 221 FB brass.

Then when reloading use a neck sizing die with a .20 bushing to resize the neck without un-doing your fireforming.

Has anyone had success with this? Why would it be necessary to use a full length die?

laportecharlie: were you talking about a set like this:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=513381 ?

What about it didn't work for you?

Thanks, Matt.

[MDHOGGER]

Matt I have been following your post over on saubier too. Adam over there has mentored me on some forming projects there too. I don't think the 17M4 forming die will help to do the total job. I have that die and you may be able to set the shoulder but I just tried the die and it sizes the neck OD to .2255" and the ID neck to .196" You would still need to open the neck up to seat a bullet in my estimation. I say just get the Hornady FL die set for $69 and size and load cases with that die. If you start to get split necks go ahead and anneal cases in a fashion similar to what I have done. If you want to be sure to not to be over sizing necks get the Redding Type S bushing neck die set.

[mattri]

Thanks for the good information. Not trying to be obtuse but why would I want to use a full length die over a neck sizer? It would seem that once the initial sizing has been done, and then the case is fireformed I would want to leave the shoulder alone. This is how I load for all my other bolt-actions.

[TOO Builder]

mattri- I built a 20 VT last winter off a RB/LP target action. I bought a Shilen prefit from NSS and couldn't be happier with it. I also agonized over what dies to get and got allot of good info both here and Saubier.

I resisted the urge and advice to get the comp. seater die set. Just way too spendy for my pocket book. I went with the Redding bushing neck die set which includes the body die, bushing neck die (I use a .227 bushing) and standard seater. I am getting excellent accuracy necking down 221 Fireball brass.

I first use the body die to size the virgin case. I found the way my head space was set up with my gauge a new, neck sized only piece of brass would not chamber. So, I just run them through the body die first and then neck size them and I am good to go. Yes it takes two passes through the dies but big deal. I have fired some of the cases three times with neck sizing only. Sooner or later you most likely will have to use the body die again to push the shoulder back as the brass will grow.

The Vartarg is a blast and contrary to what I had talked myself into it is very easy to load for and have good accuracy without doing a bunch of fancy brass prep etc. Enjoy it, TB

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/Toobuilder/IMG_4208_1.jpg

[mattri]

Great reply TB. How did you know which bushing to get?

[TOO Builder]

I think I just took the advice that one of the guys here gave me to use the .227 as a starting point. It is best to measure the diameter of a loaded round and go from there but you have to have a loaded round first. Turned out the .227 is what I needed and works fine withe the Remington .221 Fireball brass as my loaded rounds measured right about .229.