Timed & Trued Actions: Savage or Remington

[Phil3]

I started a thread earlier (Savage Trashing) that mostly pertained to general perceptions and opinions of Savage actions vs Remington 700. I am looking now to use a timed and trued action for a custom build, which may change the pros and cons of these two actions in some regards. I know the Savage can be timed and trued for about $125 and a good trigger installed for another $195. The Remington now has simpler methods to time and true, with a ready to run bolt for $125, but still requires more machining elsewhere. But, I understand the trigger is easier to set up. No contest on barrel install, Savage wins. I can see why Stiller Precision says why customize a Remington when you can buy one of their actions ready to run.

But, sticking with Remington and Savage, both timed and trued, how do these two fare against one another for feel, accuracy, and reliability? I know the Remington will be more costly to set up.

- Phil

[dcloco]

The same.

IMO, the Savage is still the winner. You can change the bolthead (think CALIBER changes) and the bolt handle (different bolt handle for different uses).

In terms of the strength difference, in all reality, the Rem action is weaker...by design. The first 3/4" of the chamber is not supported by the action. Whereas the first 3/4" of the chamber is threaded to the action.

If a BR shooter actually built a sleeved Savage and a sleeved Remington, I doubt there would be one snibbit of difference in accuracy.

Conversely, I will put any factory Savage up against any factory Remington....any day of the week. Sporter to sporter....varmint to varming....or sniper to sniper......of course, all in the same calibers.

I have never been, "I am a brand X action only type of person". But, as of late, there are very, very few Remingtons left in the safe. Actually..there are 4. A 721 in 223 AI Hart barrel, 722 in 30/06 sporter (2nd year production), 721 in 22/250 (I built it), and a 270 at my dad's house. All the rest are Savage, one K98 Mauser, 4 Swedish Mausers, an AR15 or two, couple of Russians, and one NEF in 243.

[Senderofan]

Phil:

I'm not sure where you're finding Remington actions trued for $125. I just completed a build early this past summer with a Remington 700 Milspec as the donor. Truing the action...including recutting threads, square the face and recoil lugs was in the few hundred dollar range. I had a long action Sendero blueprinted a few years ago...same deal.

My new BVSS....with new trigger ( didn't take to the flipper deal on the Accutrigger) and minimal gunsmith work @ $1300 to $1400 for everything. My Milspec ran $2500...which includes the original $1050 purchase price of the new rifle. Both rifles have triggers from the same manufacturer....and both have custom barrels and factory stocks. The Sendero was in the $3500+ range but has a Mcmillan A5 stock with a lot of options.

All in all...The Savage is more economical to tweak. My limited trigger time demonstrates the Savage to be on par with my custom Remingtons at half the cost. An added benefit for the Savage is the ease of changing a barrel.

Guess if you have a source for trued Remington actions for the same price as a T&T Savage....then it might be a coin toss...except for the ease of changing barrels.


Good Luck,

Wayne

[pdog06]

A good Savage trigger for $195???? Try $95 for a SSS trigger or $145 for a Rifle Basix SAV2.

[Senderofan]

Yeah....I think my SAV-2 was $125, on sale earlier this summer, from EABCO. Very nice trigger...As is the SSS.

Wayne

[outlawkyote]

I cant beleive any factory rem trigger is nicer than an accutrigger. The last rem trigger I fooled with was horrid at best and I had to replace it.

[82boy]

Phil,
I don't know what your looking for, everything has been covered in the past post. SSS is the originator of "Time and True" work, most gunsmiths don't understand what timing is and only true an action. The only 2oz trigger for a Savage is the SSS evolution, and it requires T&T work prior to purchase. The total cost is $300, and that includes a T&T job. If you separate the cost, it is $125 for the T&T job and $195 for the trigger, so your better off getting it all done in one crack.

As I mentioned in prior post, I have personality experienced a compassion between a T&T SSS Savage target action and a BAT B action side by side. From the experience of the owner, my self and other individuals, it is extremely hard to tell the difference between the actions in feel. If you blind folded several individuals and asked them which action is which what without touching the action but only the bolt, I guarantee they could not do it. The only difference you could tell is if your grabbed the Savage bolt from behind and wiggled it, for the tolerances are not as tight. The jewel trigger is just slightl lighter. I can not compare it to a worked Remington action because in all the match's I shoot in no-one uses a Remington action anymore.

On reliability My SSS worked Savage repeater action has had thousands of rounds down the tube, and (knock on wood) never once had a single problem, that was contributed to the rig. (I did have a brass problem that screwed me in one match)

On accuracy I shoot my Savage in many unregistered match's in an unlimited class against all custom built guns. (Bat, Stole, Stiller, Neiska, Hall, ETC) I usually finish in the middle of the pack, it is not the equipment but the shooter. To further talk about the equipment, I have a used 6ppc Krieger barrel that has changed hands at least 5 times with over 1000 rounds down it, I am shooting used who knows how many times fired brass, a model 11 repeater action, with God know how many rounds through it, (I would guess at least 7000) I just switched scopes from a 24 power Tasco world class to a weaver t36, and it has a laminate stock, finished and done by me. Even with all of that the gun will shoot .2 to .3 aggs all day long, and my best group so far was a .122. When I had the Tasco scope on the gun I had less than $1000 dollars total in the gun, now with the T36 scope I have $1250 in it. I am about to freshing up the barrel and see what that does.

I have shot a friend of mine's SSS built Savage, and it shoots good, I shot a 5 shot group that was in the mid .2 area without wind flags. Last match I saw him spoil a group that would have been in the low .1's. He claims that his two bats or his old pandas will not out shoot it. This gun has never had a failure that I know of. He usually finishes in the middle to the top of the pack. His set up is a Savage dual port target action, TMBR stock, SSS evolution trigger, Talley rings, Krieger barrel, Leupold 45 power scope. His Bats have the same stock, and scope. All I can say is all the shooters we shoot with are top notch, and very competitive. They are extreamly hard to beat!

This is all I can say. Yes Stiller makes a heck of a action for the money. I have considered building a Stiller Viper only because it cost the same as building a Savage, and it would have a better resale. The Viper is $900 bucks with rings and trigger guard. You need a $150 dollar trigger. For a Viper action you will have at least a 4 month wait.

A Savage dual port target action is $475, a SSS trigger and T&T job is $300, a trigger guard is $20 bucks a recoil lug is $25, a PPC bolt head is $45 bucks, a barrel nut is $20, a set of rings increases the total even higher, for a total around $900 bucks. Will the Viper out shot a Savage, I seriously doubt so.

My final advise to you is this: (and it is blasphemous to this site) don't buy a Remington, and don't buy a Savage. Spend a few bucks and buy a Stiller or other action, and don't look back. I don't think you would be happy with a factory gun. Mine came about because it is what I had, and I don't have any money. My friends gun came about because we live near SSS, and he wanted to see if a Savage could shoot as good. He plans on shooting this gun at a registered match, if he gets the time. As I stated before the downside of a Savage is, it is a Savage, and will never have much a resale value. For the money you would spend into a Savage to make it shoot like a custom gun you would almost have the same money in building or buying a used custom gun. The Savage WILL HOLD ITS OWN GROUND, but why bother when the Remington customs have much better aftermarket parts availability, less work, a better resale value, and a slightly lighter trigger.

Good luck in your endeavors.

[Phil3]

I'm not sure where you're finding Remington actions trued for $125. I just completed a build early this past summer with a Remington 700 Milspec as the donor. Truing the action...including recutting threads, square the face and recoil lugs was in the few hundred dollar range.


Wayne,

My original post meant to say you can buy a Remington bolt, ready to run, for $125. This does NOT include any work done on the bare action, such as lug truing, rethreading, etc. So, the $125 is JUST for the bolt. In the end, the Remington action, trued and timed, would be definitely be more than $125. There is a new method for working on the receiver, which cuts costs substantially, but so far, I do not know to what level. The process is "Gre-Tan", for Greg Tannel.

- Phil

[Phil3]

A good Savage trigger for $195???? Try $95 for a SSS trigger or $145 for a Rifle Basix SAV2.


The $195 came from the SSS site, for the Evolution trigger, if the action was already trued and timed. But, since the same trigger can be had installed, along with the truing and timing ($125 alone) for $300, it only makes sense to do this, since this saves $20. - Phil

[savageboy]

82 Boy, great write up and synopsis. I am going thru the same debate w/ myself. I have a brand new Tgt Action. By the time I do all you just mentioned- and add a PTG fluted oversized bolt and have it polished- I will have over about $1000 in the savage. My buddies are now shooting Barnard actions- $1100 WITH a good trigger. Only down side is you can't get a good LRBR SSS stock and do all the work your self. I top of the line Sav w/ good barrel and that SSS stock it will end up about $2k- done right. A custom will be about $3500 due to the more exp action, stock and the Gunsmithing work.
I am in the same boat right now and really haven't decided.

[savageboy]

PS there is a good sounding Stolle Kodiak action used for $900 (new they are $1200 ) on benchrest.com

[82boy]

A note to add, a Savage action will line up perfectly with a stock for a Remington action. Tom Meridith (TM) and other stock makers don't offer Savage stocks. What Fred (SSS) did on our friends gun was he ordered a Remington stock and Fred inletted it. You can not tell that the stock was never meant for a Savage, it fits the dual port like a glove. You will have about 2k in a bench gun either way.

[Phil3]

82Boy,

Thank you very much for this perspective. It makes it clear there really are just three avenues to pursue.

1 - Shoot a factory gun, be happy with it, don't invest much in it. Buy used to take advantage of poor resale on Savage. I can buy right now, a lightly used LRPV in .223 with base and rings for $850. Cheap and easy to shoot, reload for, and allows for lots of practice, wind reading, etc. I do not have many rounds under my belt.

2 - Buy a Savage factory action and build my "factory" gun. For instance, LRPV RBLP action, aftermarket barrel and stock. Still pretty cheap and closer to what I wanted anyway. Action is $475, barrel $380, stock $300. Total is $1,155.

3 - Buy used custom gun with aftermarket action (Stiller, Panda, BAT, etc.). $1,500+

At this point, I am leaning to #2, and then #1.

Thank you.

[pdog06]

Personally , I dont know why you would build a gun you wanna compete with, and be worried about the resale value of the gun/parts ??? Build what you wanna build and what you think gives you the best chance to compete. If you are worried about what you can sell it for after you're done shooting out the barrel then IMO you shouldnt even build it. Guns(and most other hobbies) are like racecars, most likely you will lose money when it is time to sell it, but if you had fun using it then it was worth having it.

I think 82boy has covered the differences between the actions pretty well and in detail. I think that if you are planning on timing and trueing either of them then they are gonna be very close in quality. You're just gonna spend more money on the Remington. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on which is the best, but you have to go with your own instincts.

[82boy]

The LRPV is a hard gun to beat, IMO I would say it is the best rifle for target shooting in the Savage line up. They do shoot good, in a 223 try a 52 gr match bullet and n133 powder. If I was building a gun it would be without a doubt a dual port, this is the sweatiest thing around.

To buy a custom action gun you would be doing very well at 1500, from looking around it is hard to find anything for under 2000, and you never know if your buying someone else's headache. Regardless if you do buy a used custom action plan on re barreling it. The way I figure it the savings from buying used gun over a new gun is small.

[Phil3]

The LRPV is a hard gun to beat, IMO I would say it is the best rifle for target shooting in the Savage line up. They do shoot good, in a 223 try a 52 gr match bullet and n133 powder. If I was building a gun it would be without a doubt a dual port, this is the sweatiest thing around.

To buy a custom action gun you would be doing very well at 1500, from looking around it is hard to find anything for under 2000, and you never know if your buying someone else's headache. Regardless if you do buy a used custom action plan on re barreling it. The way I figure it the savings from buying used gun over a new gun is small.


What, in your opinion, makes the LRPV the best from Savage for target shooting vs their dedicated target rifles?

I shot a dual port custom gun once (65 lb. benchrest heavy gun), and I did like the dual port action it had. I think it was a BAT. Does this weaken the action any vs the side port only? If I had my druthers, what I really would love to have is the LRPV in 6mmBR. The dual port version is 1:12" twist only, while the RBLP is available in 1:12 and 1:8. The Benchrest Dual Port is also available in 6mmBR, but only in 1:8.

I will primarily be shooting at 100 and 200 yards, so the 223 may be just fine. I am not sure the 6mmBR will offer any more accuracy at that range.

Overall, Savage has some good choices for my shooting needs I think. Money is probably better spent on reloading supplies and ammunition practicing.

- Phil

[Phil3]

Personally , I dont know why you would build a gun you wanna compete with, and be worried about the resale value of the gun/parts ??? Build what you wanna build and what you think gives you the best chance to compete. If you are worried about what you can sell it for after you're done shooting out the barrel then IMO you shouldnt even build it. Guns(and most other hobbies) are like racecars, most likely you will lose money when it is time to sell it, but if you had fun using it then it was worth having it.


If I invest similar amounts of money, for the same result, it makes sense to use the option that has the best resale in the event it is ever sold. Many are, judging by want ads. Still, building the best tool is of course the right way to do things, and should not be compromised by considerations given to resale, unless that is a primary consideration. It isn't for me.

- Phil

[82boy]

Just because the name it a "Target" rifle don't make it a target rifle. The LRPV has a "Target" action the same action as the others. So would it be consider it a target gun? This gun is just built right, it has a good stock, it is balanced, the barrel is not too long, the stock is not weirdly designed and so on. The LRPV does have one problem the coating on the stock makes it ride hard in the bags, so you can either sand it off, or place tape over it to fix the problem. I have seen a few guys take this gun out of the box, and shoot 5 shot groups in the high.2 to low .3 area. I think the 223 is the best caliber choice in this gun.

On rigidity, IMO it is a load of you know what. There comes a point where an action is stiff enough and any more is just overkill. Think about this, all the events of firing take place in the chamber of the barrel, the action only holds the site straight. There has never been any scientific proof that a "Target action" is any more accurate than a standard action, or a short action is more accurate than a long action. There has been no proof what so ever that the dual port would be any less accurate than a standard target action. Going back to the rifles that I have mentioned earlier, my friends gun is a dual port Savage, my gun is a standard action repeater action.

I did a review on the 12 benchrest, and it is a good gun, but I think IMO the LRPV is a better choice for the money. Back to the 12 benchrest, the 8 twist barrel will stabilize the lighter bullets, and the 6mm will have a higher bc than a 22, but I don't see where the 223 gives up much accuracy to the 6br.

Dot let the fast twist guns fool you, they can still shoot good at close yardages. My long range gun (6x47 lapua Savage 110 repeater that I bought from a pawn shop) will shoot 5 shoot 100 yard groups in the mid .3 area all day long with vld bullets. It sounds weird, and if I did not shoot so many rounds, and see it first hand I would not believe it. In theory, the boat tailed bullets should not be stabilized at that range.

[dcloco]

In all reallity, we should be gluing the barrels to the stocks and let the actions float.