Savage 12 BVSS 22-250 to 6mm BR build

[LDSILLS]

I saw where David Hobeck had some e clips. Check with him.

Thank you, my error. Eyes are bad. i found out that when you remove the "trigger/sear assembly" retaining pin it has NO E-clip on it. It just pushes in. However the "trigger proper" retaining pin does have an e-clip. Thus I am good.

[LDSILLS]

Lug appearance looks like the CNC machine needed a new finishing tool installed as its by the naked eye is much greater than 63 micro-inch finish. Not to mention a visible scratch on the receiver lug face. If mine is this bad Its no wonder Savage lifts are hard across the board. Mind you these lugs have probably less than 1,000 cycles and were well cleaned and properly oiled before storage.
https://i.ibb.co/M1Y7LW4/1-D021-B31-CA52-48-D5-BF53-4-B688-CC2-C512.jpg (https://ibb.co/M1Y7LW4)



I believe I can smooth the metal without effecting fit by starting with a 180 Medium grit and working to a Fine Grit around 320 to maybe 500. That with the thrust bearing/washer combo behind the BAS should increase bolt lift easement. IMHO Now is the time to do lapping it so I can adjust headspace during barrel replacement.I had considered using a Dremel buffer and add lapping compound to it, however I cannot measure the surfaces face accurately so Ill do it the old fashion way, bolt lug face to action lug face.

If I cannot smooth the lugs, I will need to send the "complete action" minus the trigger/sear assembly and modified single action feed mag off for truing and re timing.

For reference here is a metal finish chart.
https://cncpartsxtj.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/plastic-surface-finish-chart-stainless-steel-surface-finish-chart-2.jpghttps://cncpartsxtj.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/plastic-surface-finish-chart-stainless-steel-surface-finish-chart-3-300x77.png

[Dave Hoback]

The surface finish of the lugs offers little bearing on Bolt Lift. It’s made increasingly worse, due in part, to the timing not properly synced of the Action/Bolt Head Lugs in front & the Camming Lugs in the rear of the Bolt Handle/Rear Baffle, aiding Primary Extraction. The relationship of function among the Trigger/Sear system, Bolt Release & Firing Pin spring account for some of the excessive Bolt Lift as well.

When you mention the Thrust bearing type lift kit, if you have the adjustable style Firing Pin assembly, I recommend the style using a single steel or ceramic bearing ball on a shouldered disk. It’s all about Coefficient of Friction. In this case, less is more. No need to overthink anything. Or try to reinvent. All the tricks are readily available on bringing bolt lift to within very acceptable limits. You are correct to pay attention to the Bolt. And yes, a T&T job may be beneficial. We have mixed reports: Some claiming complete curing of their harsh bolt lift & having a quite smooth Action after the work was done. And some who claim it was a complete waste of money, and their Action feeling identical to how it was before sending for the T&T. It seems to me that yes, some 110’s may benefit from this, if in fact, the heavy bolt lift is because their 110’s front/rear Lugs being very far out of sync! Other 110’s aren’t always terrible to begin with. And having a T&T performed isn’t going to be Earth Shattering, if any discernible difference. It’s straightforward on how to check the timing on your own, before choosing to spend the money. Video below illustrating checking Timing on a Rem 700. The Savage 110 is quite similar. This can be felt especially when you have a bare Action & Bolt assembly. Timing can be both visually seen & felt by the hand with a bare Action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szy4HBg3q80

[LDSILLS]

The surface finish of the lugs offers little bearing on Bolt Lift. It’s made increasingly worse, due in part, to the timing not properly synced of the Action/Bolt Head Lugs in front & the Camming Lugs in the rear of the Bolt Handle/Rear Baffle, aiding Primary Extraction. The relationship of function among the Trigger/Sear system, Bolt Release & Firing Pin spring account for some of the excessive Bolt Lift as well.

When you mention the Thrust bearing type lift kit, if you have the adjustable style Firing Pin assembly, I recommend the style using a single steel or ceramic bearing ball on a hardened disk. It’s all about Coefficient of Friction. I this case, less is more. No need to overthink anything. Or try to reinvent. All the tricks are readily available on bringing bolt lift to within very acceptable limits. You are correct to pay attention to the Bolt. And yes, a T&T job may be beneficial. We have mixed reports: Some claiming complete curing of their harsh bolt lift & now having a quite Action. Some who claim it was a complete waste of money, and their Action feeling identical to how it was before sending for the T&T. It seems to me that yes, some 110’s may benefit from this, if in fact, the heavy bolt lift is because their 110’s front/rear Lugs are very far out of sync! Other 110’s aren’t always terrible to begin with. And having a T&T performed isn’t going to be Earth shattering if any discernible difference. It’s straightforward on how to check the timing on your own, before choosing to spend the money. Video below illustrating checking Timing on a Rem 700. The Savage 110 is quite similar. This can felt especially when you have a bare Action & Bolt assembly. Timing can be both visually seen & felt by the hand like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szy4HBg3q80

Thank you,

I have everything laid out. So I can work on about anything I want. Before I lap anything I will paint receiver lugs and bolt lugs with some layout die (need to get some) and we'll see how the lug surfaces are aligning. When you speak of friction I fully understand where you're coming from. I am all ears with any recommendations you have to offer. Thanks!

I need to study the issues some more. None the less something is just not right with the bolt/action. Because after a dry fire when I go to lift the bolt its not smooth at all. Before firing its seems smooth and I can lift and close it with my little finger.

Do I have a bare bones rifle well almost if I remove the trigger and sear assembly! In fact thats where Ill start I pull the trigger/sear assembly and see how the bolt movement is.


https://i.ibb.co/h7hz9kT/254-F2-FB8-4-E5-B-4-DC3-BEE4-450-CA187-EB22.jpg (https://ibb.co/h7hz9kT)

[LDSILLS]

Dave and others I found this on this site for bolt issues:


"From Nat Lambeth a well respected gunsmith. This is from an older post over at LRH, and for all I know things may have changed, but it stills gives a nice basic overview of what he does.

Timing and truing a Savage:

Savages are mass produced and designed to be put together in a production line from a bin of parts.

The bolt bolt bodies are chrome plated tubing drawn on a mandrel. The triggers, trigger hangers, and sears are forged or stamped out.

Their factory barrel, actions, and floating bolt head are the hear of their inherent accuracy.

Some of the things that are done to improve on the Savage rifles are bolt fit, alignment and timing.

The factory actions bolt race are .7015 ID and the factory bolt bodies are usually about .696 OD. Real sloppy in comparison to other manufactures.

The cocking ramps are cut with an end mill and the helical leaves something to be desired.

The main screw, compresses against the cocking piece sleave that compresses the firing pin spring. Slop and deflection in the spring adds to the friction in cocking.
Bolt lift on cocking is the major complaint about Savages. Bolt lift can be reduced by 50-60 percent by timing and truing Savage actions.

Some gunsmiths use a deprimed spent 38/357 magnum case cut to fit inside the cocking piece sleeve and insert a ball bearing in the primer pocket. The ball provides a smaller and slicker surface for the main screw to mate up against.

I drill and tap the main screw .250 X 28tpi and insert a .750 x .250 28tpi grade 8 cone point set screw. I also make a shouldered cap with a center indentation for the set screw to mate with. This does several thisngs it reduces the friction, it aligns the firing pin, and it allows for external firing pin spring tension adjustment.

The bolt handles are fit to the back of the bolt and held in place by the main screw.

Upon opening the holt handle rubs up against the ramp on the rear baffle this is where the bolt gets its primary extraction.

When bolt head lugs are turned or lapped they can move the primmary extraction out of timing. There for the bolt body must be shortened to bring the primmary extraction back.

I recomend that folks also replace their factory bolt body with a .701 PT&G bolt body that is precision ground form tool steel. this requires some turning and machining to make it fit properly.

There are several friction points between the trigger, trigger hanger, and sear that should also be deburred and polished.

The bolt lugs should be turned and lapped into 60% or better bilateral engagement.

During the same operation the bolt face should be machined.

For high presure cartridges the bolthead should have the firing pin hole centered and bushed.

I have not seen any significant difference in accuracy between barrels using the nut vs shouldered barrels. The nut just makes headspacing easy and barrels interchangeable between different actions.

There is no reason a Savage rifle can not shoot with the best and most expensive factory actions.

Nat Lambeth

[LDSILLS]

Its March 17 and the modifications of the 22-250 to 6BR continue.

I attempted hand squaring the bolt lugs and polishing with several grits of Flattening stones. I indeed got it accomplished for bolt lugs however the receiver lug's would another problem so it was all in vain. I am sending it all to Fred Moreo at Sharp Shooter Supply to have bolt lugs and receiver lugs trued. Email communications have already begun when I can ship.

New Red Blade Target Trigger has replaced the old Accutrigger. IMHO it still needs more work to make it feel like a Bench Rest Trigger. Ill rig up my pulley system using fishing weights later to determine actual pull weight as I do not trust Trigger Pull tools offered today and why pay for them when string, pulley and fishing weights are more accurate and cost less than $10.

I temporarily fitted the barrel to the action and then set the barrel/Action/Trigger into the stock. Just for the heck of it. Had to work slow with lots of rest with my spinal issues. I also played around with the new to me Apha 6mm-BR cases just to arbitrarily see where head space is. Yes I have head space gauges, I was just messing around with the Alha Cases.

Still awaiting for the AtlasWorx Cheek Riser from Australia, so I do stock work. Its held up in Califonia awaiting US customs acceptance.

Here's is what the temporary assembled new 6mm-BR looks like.

https://i.ibb.co/VTVHYMB/IMG-1769.jpg (https://ibb.co/tDBZpYC)

[LDSILLS]

Update 4-3-24


3-4-2024
update 3-6-24
update 3-9-24
update 3-13-24
update 3-19-24
Update 4-3-24
Update 5-25-24
in progress or completed
1) i am in progress of the stagger feed mag box mods to accommodate a score high single feed part. Ill post picture of the box mods. completed see below
2) ordered a atlasworx cheek riser riser hardware from Atlasworx arrive today
3) ordered criterion 6br-norma stainless, 26 inch 1/8 twist, 11 degree crown, threaded, with thread cut and stainless barrel nut has been ordered today from jim at nss (northland shooters supply). Barrel was in stock. Having trouble finding 6br go and no-go gauge, i bought the nss. I also went ahead decided to try the apa gen 3, little bastard brake brake. barrel, gauges, brake, all arrived


needs done
1) trigger, ordered new trigger. Worked on sear and carefully polished all faces. Along with polishing the trigger, sear assembly retaining pin. Pull feels very crisp now and is comfortable for me when tested in the vice. red blade trigger arrived awaiting on sear.
2) bolt,lug polishing for lift easement, bolt face lapping truing email into sharp shooter supply for action truing and timing, ejector pin removal, etc. lift kit arrived and installed. Doesn't seem to add much? Noticed action lug surfaces appear to incompletely lapped response from sss. Awaiting answer on when to ship, 3-4 week lead time. Completed 4-15-24
3) cut and inlet stock for Atlasworx riser. Completed 5-25-24
4) order Petersen brass for barrel break in unless by miracle Lapua is found! ...completed! Petersen could not be found, purchase 100 brass cases of alpha munitions 6mm br brass with small rifle primer pocket from bullet central arrived 100 rounds Alpha found 100 cases of Norma from bruno shooters supply..arrived
5) order sierra 107g match kings or nosler 105g custom competition for barrel break in. arrived
6) order new 6br f/l dies and bullet seater... I plan on mixing and matching brands. (any advice on these so many options out there...completed! Decided on a forster ultra die set to get the ball rolling. Price drop online from $222.00 to $165.50 purchased direct. arrived
7) order small rifle primers
8) Cut and Installed David Tubb firing pin spring. Sent action/bolt to Sharp Shooters Supply for bolt fluting truing and final timing. 4-3-24

[LDSILLS]

March 24, 2024

Home brew bolt work is on the agenda now-a-days. As the trigger is done. The action still needs to be sent off Sharp Shooter Supply for truing and timing! Waiting to here on a reservation time.

I just don't like the way the Savage Firing Pin Spring bunches up in the bolt. If it looks like a worm and nearly extends beyond the Firing Pin Stop Nut diameter in the relaxed position. Imagine how much its bunched and allowing for drag inside the Bolt Body Tube when compressed. Just not good enough for me as I cannot control friction and each time the pin fires it has a variance on pin impact to the primer. See copied photo from the net to see the bunching I am talking about. BTW if the Factory Spring tension is around 28lbs compressed and not dragging.

I decided to go with a Tubb Precision Chrome Silicone Firing Pin Spring for Savage 110/112 to alleviate this issues. At least if it drags I am reducing the drag because of material composition. Tubbs Chrome Silicone vs Factory Carbon type.
https://www.davidtubb.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=207

Another source for Savage 110 Firing Pin Springs springs I found is Wolf Gun Springs which offer a 32 & 36 Lb spring , but they do not provide a length. I had considered this spring and if it is the sane size as the factory spring I could trim it down in length and still achieve ~28lbs. I am sure a call would give you that answer.

Should the TUBB Spring not be to my liking I am out around $15.00 with shipping. Spring Cost online at Tubbs website is $5.00.
https://i.ibb.co/vqwB3sP/Firing-Pin.jpg (https://ibb.co/6wnZHvP)

[Dave Hoback]

Post a picture of that Tubb spring when you get it. I’ve searched high & low for the perfect replacement. Right now I’m using a Chrome-Silicon Flat Wire spring, which works in my set up, but can fail to ignite primers in others. Chrome-Silicon is my preferred spring material. Throughout all my firearm I try to find CS springs throughout. The Tubb spring Sounds promising, but I want to see it. I want to know how many coils specifically it has. The Wolff spring is out of the question. 32lbs is WAY more than needed. At 28lbs. the factory spring is already oversprung. The problem with cutting coils is it’s not reducing the weight. Making a spring shorter makes it stiffer & increases the spring rate. But for our application, in which we are looking for release energy, a cut spring has less preload(which is our mistaking it for less power), but more importantly, the less coils means less energy. Think of this: take two springs both the same diameter wire & both being 4” long. The only difference is one is 10 coils & one is 20 coils. Which will retain more stored energy upon release?

But I’m interested in seeing the Tubbs spring. Below is my spring assy. currently. You can see it’s a much better fit, a has very little of the “S” factor going on.
https://i.ibb.co/m0tfvbx/5-D604205-5-F17-4-DF1-8879-FEBC97-F41-B1-E.jpg (https://ibb.co/gdwkvmn)

[LDSILLS]

Dave, it is more than kinetic energy of the spring to meet some primer inch-ounce specification to ignite small and large rifle primers. Indeed we need to take into consideration the Kinetic energy of the firing pin not just energy stored in a spring to get to this kinetic energy of the firing pin or K; it is 1/2 the mass of the firing pin assembly and the velocity squared of the firing pin assembly. K = 1/2 * m * v2. since we cannot measure velocity use algebra and solve for v2.

Or the simpler way is just try increase the mass of the Firing Pin Stop Nut Washer. Simple stainless flat washers will do the trick. I dont have the exact dimensions of similar washers for fit but adding just 1-3 will predictably increase the velocity of the firing pin tip and its force in inch-ounces. I would think 5 test firings each time while inspecting primer denting afterwards will tell you if your at the correct mass to ensure around you achieve around 48 inch-ounces of small rifle primer force is exerted or 64 inch-ouces is exerted for large rifle primers.

Many bench guys have done this, with great results.

For further reading below is Tubbs study that will shed a lot more light on the issue and get you to perhaps smaller groups.
file:///Users/ldsil1/Desktop/Photos/DT_firing_pin_impact_studies.pdf

AS always, kindest regards to all!...Larry

[Rocketvapor]

I did this for the wife's 22 Nosler Savage 10.
https://i.ibb.co/4SMR79c/K3-II0127b.jpg (https://ibb.co/FYJ4KN9)
Detailed in this post:
https://www.savageshooters.com/showthread.php?72254-First-time-Savage-Build-questions-and-progress&p=523101#post523101

[LDSILLS]

I did this for the wife's 22 Nosler Savage 10.
https://i.ibb.co/4SMR79c/K3-II0127b.jpg (https://ibb.co/FYJ4KN9)
Detailed in this post:
https://www.savageshooters.com/showthread.php?72254-First-time-Savage-Build-questions-and-progress&p=523101#post523101

Darn it, every time I post something its already been done in the past on this site. You guys are killing me! Hahahah

Tell me Rocket do you feel the thrust bearing type lift kit helped?

Also is the head of your wifes bolt bushed? I ask as getting the variance removed in the original fire pin hole will ensure a more precise anvil pressure.

For other readers factory bolt reamers leave to much variance in firing pin travel. Again friction and poor alignment of the firing pin effect precise contact with the primer anvil which is indeed an precision issue downrange. It has been proven will cause flyers. So it's not always a barrel issue with flyers. Manufactures know about the excess and its deliberate. They need this as they never know where they will get the next firing pin from. So the firing pin ends up seeking the the firing pin hole. While doing this drags on the throat of the bolt body. Not to mention the firing pin hole is large and the firing pin will strike the primer in different locations. Look at your fired rounds and you will see on the primer different strike areas how inaccurate factory bolts are. Bottomline if you get the bolt faced squared also get the firing pin bushed by somebody that really knows how to do it.

It's things like this that reminds me why I do not prescribe to "if it aint broke dont fix it" with regards to building a shooter from a factory platform.

[Rocketvapor]

Did not use the "88 cent thrust bearing" as a thrust bearing, just used the races as washers to kick up preload of flatwound spring.
I used the 1/4" Ceramic ball for the larger contact radius over a 5/32" ball. Milled into the 38 case head with a carbide dremel bit.

Pin will rattle easily. Doesn't seem to rubbing finish on pin.
Pin diameter is 0.068". Bolt head (is not bushed) will pass a 0.071"(-) gaging pin but not a 0.072"(-). 10562
Clearance is about 0.003+"

I LIKE the Ceramic ball/Carbide tip much more than the "Thrust Bearing Lift kit".
Not having great machining capabilities at home, the $17 carbide tip was easier.
It is not highly polished and won't show fringes with an optical flat. With no race under it I have about 0.080" recess, one race about 0.030" recess and with 2 races under the mic tip it protrudes about 0.020". The 10mm races fit nicely in the hollow of the BAS.

I drilled the cocking piece for a little shorter pin length.
10563
Pin fall will be a little more with the 1/4x28 set screw mod but I will have to check for bottom contact.

Pin protrusion could be adjusted down to 0.040" or 1/4 turn less about 0.031".
Shaved about 0.005" off the forward end of the pin adjusting nut, 1/4 turn and ended up with 0.035" to 0.036".

I went back a few years worth of posts for these modifications.
Working on reading the entire forum :)

[LDSILLS]

Good stuff Rocket. Gives me allot of food for thought. ITS ALL VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!

I tried the 10mm thrust bearing under the BAS for better lift mod. Its fits well , but I think it's all waste as it just a grease holder. Bolt lift was not improved. At least I could not feel it. I did retime the bolt to the action.

[LDSILLS]

March 26th 2024

With the old 22-250 hand tightened to the action I got a chance to test how my Magazine mod/ Sore High single follower install. The Ejector was removed and will remain that way. I used a dummy round for feed and ease of spent round, placement removal testing. No primer or powder just a case with a bullet tapped in. (Literally tapped the bullet in with a hammer handle as my coffee was getting cold and I was too lazy to swap out and install my bullet seater,,,Hahah)

Other thoughts: I am not sure for the time I spent on the Magazine/Sore High single follower mod; I would of been better off purchasing a nylon single follower adapter from MK Machining, sold on Kinneys Shooting Supply for $35.00 https://kinneysshootingsupply.com/savage-single-shot-short-action-adapter-mk-499/ . Then sold my magazine, spring/follower combo for $25.00. Too late now as the ol' magazine just isn't what it used to be.


https://i.ibb.co/Xtys9sc/IMG-1784.jpg (https://ibb.co/PgThRhq).

[Rocketvapor]

Would that be another use for a 3D printer :)
One of these days- - - - -

[charlie b]

Would that be another use for a 3D printer :)
One of these days- - - - -

That's another tool I've seriously considered but not bought. Used to have a 70W CO2 laser cutter and did a lot of things with it. But, unless there is a business for it then all the work of drawing and cutting/printing....

I'd probably just get a hunk of HDPE and 'carve it to shape.

[Rocketvapor]

OK, dumb move here.
Saw pictures of SA springs and ordered 2 of the Tubbs Springs.
Oops, Long Action.
Maybe one can be cut down.
10590
Maybe someone can count turns from the picture.
I got two different number of turns.
Maybe best out of 3? :)

I bet 'He who shall not be named' could make it work :)

The Commander spring, a little light, works with the shims.

[charlie b]

Not really number of turns issue unless the springs are same material and wire dia.

You don't want to cut it just on a whim, but, you can come pretty close. I'd cut it about 1/4" longer and then shorten as needed to make it fit. The worst that can happen is you ruin the spring.

If you had a stock LA spring you could measure the originals and shorten by same percentage.

[Rocketvapor]

Not now, but later, I'll trim some off one and compare preload to lift cocking pin off the notch and decocked to the factory SA spring.
Just to have some force numbers to compare.