Firing pin, springs, FTF.

[KMW1954]

The firing pin falling on a dud primer will easily shorten a shoulder datum measurement by .002-.005", or more. I like to shoot reduced loads in several bolt guns, and in several calibers. Nearly all of these loads (.223 to .338 Win Mag at 1600-1800 fps) will shorten the datums by .003" or sometimes more. There is simply not enough pressure to stretch the brass back to chamber length after the firing pin smacks the case shoulder into the chamber.

So yes, the OP losing datum from a firing pin strike is a real thing.

Thank you!

[KMW1954]

I too would like to see what it ends up being. We may all run into this issue one day. It is how we all learn.

So was able to do some quick measurements;
All brass was measured base to datum before loading and after loading to a length of 1.462". Any and all that didn't meet that was culled out.
All fired brass from this lot measured from base to datum, 1.462" - 1.464"
All pcs that FTF measured 1.454" - 1.457"

These are all from the same lot and now have 9 more that did not fire. They too will be fed into the Model 10 to see if they fire.

[Robert8904]

Well, if it failed to dent the primer at all then I doubt it could shorten the datum. A light strike will still drive the case forward, but maybe not as much. But if the light strike was due to excessive headspace, the case then has enough distance to build up momentum before stopping abruptly at the shoulder, losing datum. Sure, it's not but some few thousandths free motion distance but that firing pin is moving fast.

[South Prairie jim]

I'll say it again.....insufficient impact energy. Those cases could be .015" short and still go off with the correct impact energy.

This is worth repeating.

[South Prairie jim]

Yes the question is more or less is it the Pin assembly/springs or a head space issue causing the FTF!
I’ve never had excess headspace create a FTF

[KMW1954]

I’ve never had excess headspace create a FTF

I have no explanation, no solution, just reporting what I am observing.

[KMW1954]

I'll say it again.....insufficient impact energy. Those cases could be .015" short and still go off with the correct impact energy.

So then please explain how this issue can be so intermittent. This same rifle just fired 45 rounds w/o a single misfire. Even though I have now purchased a new firing pin, both springs and the tension washer no parts have been changed. I just fired 25 of the same primers, from the same lot, CCI450 and then another 20 Remington 7 1/2.

[charlie b]

Do you still have the 'original' ones that still did not fire in the model 10? If so, when you pulled the bullets did you check to see if the primers had gone off?

This is one of those weird problems.

[South Prairie jim]

I have no explanation, no solution, just reporting what I am observing.

It’s a bit of a head scratcher I’m sure, I’m just reporting that I’ve not shared the same experience, of course without the rifle in front of a person we are just speculating and trying to help. Are you sure the primers were fully seated ?

[KMW1954]

It’s a bit of a head scratcher I’m sure, I’m just reporting that I’ve not shared the same experience, of course without the rifle in front of a person we are just speculating and trying to help. Are you sure the primers were fully seated ?

Understand. Everyone is, all have suggestion but no solutions. As stated every primer pocket was uniformed and depth measured. Primers also measured and seated accordingly. Another friend of ours from THR spent a couple weeks with me trying to sort this out after this issue developed while working up a load he was helping me evaluate. Once again I came here to ask about firing pin springs as I have not experienced that yet and he doesn't shoot Savages.

[South Prairie jim]

Understand. Everyone is, all have suggestion but no solutions. As stated every primer pocket was uniformed and depth measured. Primers also measured and seated accordingly. Another friend of ours from THR spent a couple weeks with me trying to sort this out after this issue developed while working up a load he was helping me evaluate. Once again I came here to ask about firing pin springs as I have not experienced that yet and he doesn't shoot Savages.

ok so if the primers are fully seated and we rarely see any difficulty firing cases with created headspace up to .015 then we must have an ignition issue as Sharpshooter mentioned. I don’t recall if you’ve replaced or altered any parts but there’s really no down side to new FP and springs.

[KMW1954]

After stepping back, taking a pause then looking again at this issue and recent events one thing I see stand out. The last two loading of this same load were all done with Norma and PMC brass. This was a total of 45 rounds. Every one fired. This Norma brass I have been loading and shooting for over a year or about 4 reload cycles. Never had an issue with failure to fire using it. This PMC is brass that is once fired, once reloaded and never fired in this rifle. Again all 20 of these fired. I have reloaded and fired PMC brass extensively prior to this and again never had an issue. It has recently struck me that all these firing issues has only started since I started with this Hornady brass which is also when I switched to the Hornady VMAX bullets..

This Hornady brass, 200 pieces, was all started and processed at one time as once fired brass. 100+pcs were loaded and fired in this rifle to start a fire form. After the first reloading/firing it was all processed again as one lot with the intention of using this brass for my league loads. This brass was then meticulously processed to start load development for this league. This was also the beginning of the failure issue. This brass was then processed again and the second loading saw an increase of the problem. Then another 25pcs was loaded for a second time and this group had a 50% failure rate. The FTF from the prior session is what I fired in the model 10 of which 50% of that did fire in the second rifle.

So now all that Hornady brass has been set aside because I just do not have time left to deal with it. I now have just three shooting days left to get a load developed with these VMAX of resort back to the 69gr SMK that I shot last year.

With that I would like to thank everyone for the help and sorry this issue is left unresolved.

[shoots100]

With that I would like to thank everyone for the help and sorry this issue is left unresolved.
Thanks for the update.
The issue isn't unresolved.
When you used quality brass the FTF issue went away.
The crappy Hornady brass was the issue.
Good luck at the match and Happy New Year.

SJC

[South Prairie jim]

Thanks for the update.
The issue isn't unresolved.
When you used quality brass the FTF issue went away.
The crappy Hornady brass was the issue.
Good luck at the match and Happy New Year.

SJC

I’ve never had a problem with Hornday brass and I have my doubts that is the sole issue. Meticulously processed brass shouldn’t have issues if meticulously processed, it’s just a case with a seated primer and powder, as long as the flash hole is clear with a solid strike it will go bang every time. I’ve also never entered a season with a fully developed load, I’ve been close and know my nodes but still tinker from match to match.

[KMW1954]

I’ve never had a problem with Hornday brass and I have my doubts that is the sole issue. Meticulously processed brass shouldn’t have issues if meticulously processed, it’s just a case with a seated primer and powder, as long as the flash hole is clear with a solid strike it will go bang every time. I’ve also never entered a season with a fully developed load, I’ve been close and know my nodes but still tinker from match to match.

1. This is my very first experience using Hornady brass so I have nothing to base a judgement on. Though I have read many mixed reviews.
2. No Meticulously processed brass should not behave such as this. Yet it did and the pcs. that did not fire all looked like light strikes. So here I have to agree. More going on than just the brass.
3. After fire forming and processing to start load development I never got through a complete session of testing because of the FTF issues. So would not try to draw any conclusions from these failed test firings.

[South Prairie jim]

1. This is my very first experience using Hornady brass so I have nothing to base a judgement on. Though I have read many mixed reviews.
2. No Meticulously processed brass should not behave such as this. Yet it did and the pcs. that did not fire all looked like light strikes. So here I have to agree. More going on than just the brass.
3. After fire forming and processing to start load development I never got through a complete session of testing because of the FTF issues. So would not try to draw any conclusions from these failed test firings.
Are you fire forming cases using a light powder charge or the full recipe ?

[KMW1954]

Are you fire forming cases using a light powder charge or the full recipe ?

Full charge of TAC with cheap FMJ bullets. When I state a full charge I am refering to the charge that would normally be used in the reload. Also aware it normally take two firing to get really good formed brass. Also before I start I measure every piece with the comparator and any and all cases that are shorter than target length get culled out. That is done just to shorten the process. But honestly I have not really seen much change from once fired in this rifle to twice fired.

[shoots100]

1. This is my very first experience using Hornady brass so I have nothing to base a judgement on. Though I have read many mixed reviews.
2. No Meticulously processed brass should not behave such as this. Yet it did and the pcs. that did not fire all looked like light strikes. So here I have to agree. More going on than just the brass.
3. After fire forming and processing to start load development I never got through a complete session of testing because of the FTF issues. So would not try to draw any conclusions from these failed test firings.
So the issue stops when you change brass, You never had FTF issue's before using Hornady brass, your FTF issues stopped after switching brass, but the brass isn't the issue and there's more going on ?
Hornady brass sucks and it sucks even more when you reload it, as you found out, but aren't acknowledging that something so simple could be the reason for the FTF's.
How many in competition reload with Hornady brass ?
It's still a pig no matter how much lipstick you put on it.
Use quality brass that has been proven to work, especially for match use.
You won't be posting about FTF issues, you'll be posting about how boringly accurate and reliable your rifle is.


SJC

[South Prairie jim]

Full charge of TAC with cheap FMJ bullets. When I state a full charge I am refering to the charge that would normally be used in the reload. Also aware it normally take two firing to get really good formed brass. Also before I start I measure every piece with the comparator and any and all cases that are shorter than target length get culled out. That is done just to shorten the process. But honestly I have not really seen much change from once fired in this rifle to twice fired.
You probably won’t see much difference on the target, lots of guys just load straight out of the box.( I know nbrsa long range champion that does) And I somewhat disagree with the post regarding Hornday brass being of poor quality. Case capacity from manufacture can vary changing internal pressure, case rim thickness can vary changing primer seating depth by very small numbers ( maybe undetectable) as well as case neck thickness can differ from others causing big differences in bullet hold/ neck tension that are easily seen on paper. But just brand name poo poo is questionable.
Q: if Hornday brass is so bad then why does Hornday factory long range creedmoor ammunition shoot so wel ?
I don’t mean to be argumentative, i think we’re just talking around the campfire sharing thoughts.

[KMW1954]

So the issue stops when you change brass, You never had FTF issue's before using Hornady brass, your FTF issues stopped after switching brass, but the brass isn't the issue and there's more going on ?SJC

Not sure why I am following this argument. Whereby my own conclusion the brass is an issue which is why it was put aside. Yet that does not explain the light strikes that are happening randomly. All I plainly stated is that there is more at fault than just this brass and no I do not believe it is the primers.

Yes this rifle has had primer issues in the past. When I first started loading for it I was using CCI400 primers until I started getting pierced primers with light beginning loads. Which I was informed here is a known issue because of the bolt head and primer pin. Switching to CCI450 eliminated that though I still see signs of cratering around the pin indent.