Progressively harder cocking while dry firing

[sholl1060]

The first 1-5 dry fires it cocks smoothly with normal effort compared to other savages. By the 10th dry fire the bolt is noticeably harder to open. At 15 dry fires the bolt is very hard to open and after 18 dry fires I needed a mallet to hammer open the bolt. In between dry fires I opened and closed the bolt with normal effort.



Disassembling/reassembling the bolt resets the process. Uncocking, loosening/retightening the BAS and then recocking resumes with difficult cocking.


Now here’s where it gets weird…


In an effort to determine which part of the bolt was causing the issue, I swapped out the bolt body, firing pin assembly, cocking piece pin and cocking piece sleeve on an older savage 111 and did the same dry firing process with the same results. After each failure I added an original 111 part back into the bolt until all parts were added back. Surely with all the “good” parts back in the bolt it will work as it did before the test right? Nope, now the 111 has the same issue of progressively difficult cocking until the bolt is disassembled/reassembled.



I have a loose Savage 10 action that I dry fired 25+ times consecutively without issue just to keep my sanity.

[Dave Hoback]

Which operation is getting progressively more difficult? You say Cocking. Do you mean Closing the bolt, Lifting the bolt or Pulling Back the bolt? Please be specific on which operation.


Also, you said “disassembly/reassembly” of the Bolt resets it. I’m thinking something is being left out. Did start after initially doing something? Replacing a part? Or taking the bolt apart? There is always something left out.

[Robinhood]

Check to see if you are galling the bolt lugs/abutments.
If you lubricated the bolt with a thin or light lubricant, that may also be a source.
Can you take pictures of the disassembled bolt and parts?

[sholl1060]

Which operation is getting progressively more difficult? You say Cocking. Do you mean Closing the bolt, Lifting the bolt or Pulling Back the bolt? Please be specific on which operation.


Also, you said “disassembly/reassembly” of the Bolt resets it. I’m thinking something is being left out. Did start after initially doing something? Replacing a part? Or taking the bolt apart? There is always something left out.

The act of moving the cocking piece pin from fired to cocked position, whether by lifting the bolt handle after firing or sliding the cocking piece pin up the ramp manually. The rifle is an unfired Stevens 200. I replaced the factory trigger with a Rifle Basix and discovered the cocking problem while tuning the new trigger.

I put the factory trigger back on and tested, no change.

[pdog06]

So are you saying that after all that both actions now have the issue? Or still just the one?

If it’s just the one then swap complete bolts and see if the issue follows to the other action of if it stays with the same action. That will tell you if it’s an issue with the bolt assembly or something else.

Any gouges or odd marks on the outside of the bolt lugs? Like maybe the front action screw is hitting the lug? Try loosening the front action screw a turn and see if it still does it?

Did you just swap a barrel by chance? Or anything else? Like Dave mentioned, usually there’s something left out that’s not mentioned, or something was just done?

[Dave Hoback]

Are you saying Cocking the striker manually (sliding the Cocking Pin up the ramp), is extra difficult? Doing it manually actually SHOULD be difficult. But the act of cocking, meaning resetting the striker, is accomplished on lifting the bolt handle. So just making sure, it’s your Bolt Lift which is extra stiff, correct?

Well, yes… I knew something was left out..LOL! Always is. Well, I’m going to be honest. Something happened when you replaced the trigger; taking things apart & putting them back together. There is nothing wrong with rifle. You are overlooking something. If you could post a video of the operation, or at least some pictures. Maybe we’ll see what happened. If you aren’t able to retrace to find what you did, you’ll have to find someone a bit more Savage savvy than yourself.

Let me ask one thing. Does the Rear Baffle have a Set Screw where the small bearing balls go? Is that Baffle extremely stiff? Read this article: https://deshind.com/2022/10/15/another-way-to-make-savage-bolt-lift-easier/

[Robinhood]

is the safety assembled adjusted correctly?

[Rocketvapor]

Dave, thanks for the link.
I've been looking for wear indications on the wife's receiver and see where the baffle ball is dragging rotating out of the slot on the bolt.
Is this something that will get worse with time and be a concern or just something that will wear in and get smoother?
9843

[Dave Hoback]

Dave, thanks for the link.
I've been looking for wear indications on the wife's receiver and see where the baffle ball is dragging rotating out of the slot on the bolt.
Is this something that will get worse with time and be a concern or just something that will wear in and get smoother?


What do you mean will it get worse? I mean, no. The screw is usually too tight because people see them & think they should be super tight. But it shouldn’t. The newer rear baffles don’t have the set screws. The bearing balls are held in by each other. On yours, just use lock tight on the set screw. Only tighten the set screw so the spring has no play. Again, the article explains it well.

[Rocketvapor]

No set screw on this one. In the article he mentioned cutting the spring.
If the mark really doesn't get worse, like digging into the slot, then no worries.
9844

"One last treatment for the Gas Baffle is to take both ball bearings out and shorten the spring. This though is tricky and I do not recommend it. First time I tried I lost all the parts and had to source some new ones. It is something though that I am going to add on to the entire process soon."

Wasn't a problem getting the balls out and back in. Just didn't want to cut the spring without a replacement available.
I deburred the edge he showed.

[Dave Hoback]

No set screw on this one. In the article he mentioned cutting the spring.
If the mark really doesn't get worse, like digging into the slot, then no worries.
9844

No, that’s the newer style with opposing bearing balls blocking one another. That one will actually get looser in time. Like a long time.

[sholl1060]

Check to see if you are galling the bolt lugs/abutments.
If you lubricated the bolt with a thin or light lubricant, that may also be a source.
Can you take pictures of the disassembled bolt and parts?

9845

[Dave Hoback]

Looks like you have a newer Rear Baffle, so no set screw. And all the parts look good from outward appearance from the photo. OK, so I am going to say this: it’s all factory everything, NO lift kit, standard short bolt handle & all. So it’s going to naturally have a good bit of 110 Bolt Lift. Just the nature of the beast. Honestly, I think if anyone were to operate the bolt on a factory 110 with already heavy bolt lift, 18 Times, it would likely feel unbearably difficult to them as well. Wondering if maybe it’s not really the rifle, but rather your own hand/arm muscles fatigued as you continue.

Think about it everyone. We’ve all felt certain 110’s which just had lighter bolt lift than most & others which were very difficult for no good obvious reason. Imagine racking the bolt on the most difficult one you’ve ever felt 15-18 times? Tell me your hands, wrists & firearms wouldn’t be burning!?

[Turkeytider]

Looks like you have a newer Rear Baffle, so no set screw. And all the parts look good from outward appearance from the photo. OK, so I am going to say this: it’s all factory everything, NO lift kit, standard short bolt handle & all. So it’s going to naturally have a good bit of 110 Bolt Lift. Just the nature of the beast. Honestly, I think if anyone were to operate the bolt on a factory 110 with already heavy bolt lift, 18 Times, it would likely feel unbearably difficult to them as well. Wondering if maybe it’s not really the rifle, but rather your own hand/arm muscles fatigued as you continue.

Think about it everyone. We’ve all felt certain 110’s which just had lighter bolt lift than most & others which were very difficult for no good obvious reason. Imagine racking the bolt on the most difficult one you’ve ever felt 15-18 times? Tell me your hands, wrists & firearms wouldn’t be burning!?

And it continues to elude me as to why Savage can`t/won`t address the bolt lift issue. IMHO customers, after the sale, should not have to be putting bolt lift kits and bigger ball bearings in extractors into Savage rifles. Having said that, maybe they HAVE addressed the extractor ball bearing issue in house? I say that because my new LRPV extracts and ejects with authority. If Savage would only address and correct those things ( well, and also commit to produce a top drawer magazine too ), they would take away the major functional issues that some complain about.

[bsekf]

OP says; The rifle is an unfired Stevens 200. Unfired sounds like NEW, maybe a trip back to Savage is in order?

[sholl1060]

OP says; The rifle is an unfired Stevens 200. Unfired sounds like NEW, maybe a trip back to Savage is in order?

It is indeed an unfired Stevens 200 although it was purchased in 2012. I can't confirm that it was ever capable of 10+ cocking cycles without becoming excessively hard to cock.

I can confirm that the Savage 111 never had this problem before I tested the Stevens parts in it. I put 40-50 rounds through the Savage last year including killing 3 deer with it. I can't see or feel any damage on the Savage firing pin assembly, cocking piece pin, cocking piece sleeve or BAS.

[pdog06]

“ After each failure I added an original 111 part back into the bolt until all parts were added back. Surely with all the “good” parts back in the bolt it will work as it did before the test right? Nope, now the 111 has the same issue of progressively difficult cocking until the bolt is disassembled/reassembled. “


So If I’m following correctly and just to be clear, you tore apart a correctly working bolt out of another rifle to swap parts out and it did not work. So you put everything back the way it was, in both guns, and now the Steven and the 111 both have the problem? Or did the 111 only have the issue with the Stevens parts in it?
I see why you did it but wish you woulda thought of just trying the complete 111 bolt assembly in the Stevens first to prove it whether it was a bolt problem or an action problem.

If it’s now both bolts with an issue then there’s only one common thing between the two, which unfortunately is that you took them both apart and put them back together. There’s no reason at all that the 111 bolt, that worked perfectly before you took it apart, should still have an issue after you put it all back together unless something isn’t done correctly? I hate to say that and mean no disrespect at all, but it just seems that’s where this topic is heading.

[Dave Hoback]

That’s been my observation since the that was posted. I don’t believe there is anything wrong with the rifle(s).

[Robinhood]

9845

There seams to be some wear on the inside of the cocking piece sleeve and the cocking piece. Cant make it out though.

Out of 18 bolts, none of them have a set screw. I don,t have any "new" bolts. What are the years?

[sholl1060]

“ After each failure I added an original 111 part back into the bolt until all parts were added back. Surely with all the “good” parts back in the bolt it will work as it did before the test right? Nope, now the 111 has the same issue of progressively difficult cocking until the bolt is disassembled/reassembled. “


So If I’m following correctly and just to be clear, you tore apart a correctly working bolt out of another rifle to swap parts out and it did not work. So you put everything back the way it was, in both guns, and now the Steven and the 111 both have the problem? Or did the 111 only have the issue with the Stevens parts in it?
I see why you did it but wish you woulda thought of just trying the complete 111 bolt assembly in the Stevens first to prove it whether it was a bolt problem or an action problem.

If it’s now both bolts with an issue then there’s only one common thing between the two, which unfortunately is that you took them both apart and put them back together. There’s no reason at all that the 111 bolt, that worked perfectly before you took it apart, should still have an issue after you put it all back together unless something isn’t done correctly? I hate to say that and mean no disrespect at all, but it just seems that’s where this topic is heading.

You are following correctly, the Savage bolt is back to original parts and now has the same issue with cocking becoming difficult only after several dry fires.

I wanted to simply swap bolts but neither bolt fits in the others action. The front baffle guide fins and cocking pieces are different thicknesses. The 111 bolt head has a pin that fits into a slot in the bolt body while the 200 does not. The 111 firing pin is thicker through the bolt head retaining pin hole and the 111 cocking piece sleeve has a full length slit.

Your conclusion isn't unreasonable from your point of view and frankly I hope you're right because that would be an easy fix. From my point of view it doesn't seem likely. I've taken apart the bolts of half a dozen Savages that I own, including the 111, and put them back together correctly. It would be interesting to find out how I've done the process correctly about a dozen times in a row and then managed to put these two back together dozens of times each in a way that allows them to function normally for ~5 shots and then becoming increasingly more difficult to cock with subsequent shots. I can't rule it out though so I'm open to ideas and theories on which part(s) installed which way can produce the result I'm having.