Is there a preferred bolt assembly style?

[Bat Rastard]

I have a new 12LRPV.
I just got it, but I believe it to be old stock.
It has a PXXXXXX serial number.
I believe the newer ones have a cocked indicator, mine does not.
My dilemma is, I am having ignition problems.
My research tells me beefier aftermarket springs will solve my issues. Or Savage will let me send it back for repair. I think it is a fair assumption they would return it with the newer firing pin assembly.
Would that be a bad thing? There's no aftermarket for that assembly that I am aware of.
I am also hesitant to give up the rifle for an unknown amount of time.
Another drawback to sending it in is the hastle of dismounting, and remounting the scope.
Kind of a dilemma.

I would greatly appreciate guidance,
Thanks, Bat

[Dave Hoback]

You have the adjustable firing pin assembly which are WAY over-sprung. So NO, a new spring is not likely the issue. But first of all… what are your “ignition problems”? There are different kinds. Please explain exactly what is happening. If it’s not firing when trigger pressed and you hear it, are you getting light primer strikes, or NO primer strike? If no, than it’s the age old Accutrigger bug. (Which I’m thinking is what’s happening) In any case, we need more info to even begin to address your problem. But again, no, it’s more than likely NOT a striker spring issue.

[Bat Rastard]

Soft Strikes:
Roughly 15% not igniting. I hit them 3 times before I give up on them.

I have ruled out headspace issues. Brass is virgin Peterson 6BR. Measuring the shoulder on the unfired brass and comparing to fired brass, the shoulder moves forward .004 after firing. Thats pretty close.

The primer pockets measured .118 Saami specifications for small rifle primer pocket depth, is .117 to .123 My primers are well seated. I first encountered trouble with CCI450's. I have not encountered a "bad" primer yet since I started loading in '89. Maybe I was due. Tried CCIBR4s, same problem, same percentage of misfires. Odds of me encountering 2 batches of "bad" primers is astronomical. Tried Rem 7 1/2s. Same results. Odds of 3 separate bad batches converging on me all at once, nil. Primers are stored in the safe, climate controlled etc...

I measured firing pin protrusion thinking it would be short. It measured .067 If anything, I think that's a bit long.

I have not touched the trigger. It breaks at a very nice 1.5 pounds. I saw no need to mess up a good thing.

I don't think I can post pictures because I am new, but if you pm me your email address, I can email you some pics.

My research and process of elimination leaves me very suspect of a weak spring. If something isn't working, hit it harder! Right? LOL

Thanks for your consideration, Bat

[Dave Hoback]

All sounds good. So you are indeed getting soft strikes on all unfired cases? Hmm.. that is quite odd with the adjustable style firing pin. And yes, .067” protrusion is WAY too much. .035” is best. How often is the soft striking happening? And have you tried shooting factory ammunition? If not, I would definitely try. Just to rule out something in the reloaded cases. Sounds like you know what you are doing, but I can tell you most of these we see, it’s typically user error. If you’ve tried factory as well with like results, I would look for a hangup; something prohibiting the striker from full release.

The next checking of sorts requires removing & disassembling the bolt & firing pin assembly. I don’t know what your level of DIY is. However, they are quite easy. You can check & set the pin for maximum pin fall (travel), and also set the protrusion correctly.

As for pictures, it’s best to use 3rd party. I use this: https://imgbb.com/ No sign up or email. Just upload, click picture and copy the “BBCode”, then paste in thread response. Easy-peasy, lemon squeezy!

[Bat Rastard]

I don't know where to find factory 6BR ammo. They certainly don't have it at Wal-Mart! lol

I am getting roughly 15% misfires.

I have had the bolt apart, I didn't change the protrusion, as I didn't know the spec at that time.

Are the adjustable assemblies more desirable than the new style?

There are a few guys on accurate shooter.com that have had similar problems that were fixed by beefier springs.
Please tell me why a bigger spring is a bad thing.

[Dave Hoback]

OK, since you’ve had yours apart, let me make certain. Which firing pin do you have? New or Old style?

https://i.ibb.co/s6tQpRd/E694-C056-43-D8-4162-A5-EF-E6-BD44666-AFE.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

And I didn’t realize you had 6rb, glanced over in your 2nd response. Yes, factory ammo would be a problem for that, LOL!

[Bat Rastard]

Definitely old style.

Is it a safe assumption that Savage would return the rifle with the new style?
The old one looks to me to be a simpler mousetrap. Simple is good... Or is it?

I am new to Savage. I bought this to shoot Factory class.

[Bat Rastard]

With the things I have tried, doesn't more spring seem logical?

[Dave Hoback]

I do not believe so. Yours would be the very first old style spring I’ve seen, needing replaced for lack of strength. It’s something like 28lbs.+ STOCK! Wolff springs does make a 32lb spring, however I’ve never known anyone to use it. Going heavier only serves to add more Bolt Lift, as it’s over sprung to begin with. I’ve experimented with different springs & had adequate primer firing using a 22lb. Spring. I currently use a cut down stock spring with the end heated & reformed flat to next coil.

There could be something wrong with the spring. That is possible. You could try another factory pin just to see. But I think you have something else going on as I previously outlined. Unfortunately, if you are unsure what to look for and obviously no one here being able to see the operation, we can only go by what you say. I think you need some Savage recognizing eyes have a look see. And to most, that means sending the rifle back. But throwing MORE spring pressure at it is not the proper fix. There is no absolute “winner” between Old & New style pin. Some people prefer the one, some prefer the other. I happen to prefer the Older style, but only because it’s adjustable. I’m not against the New. If you want to switch, all the NEW style parts can be purchased as I’ve listed below.

https://www.gunshack.com/savage-parts?product_id=3420

https://www.gunshack.com/savage-parts?product_id=3423

https://www.gunshack.com/savage-parts?product_id=3422

https://www.gunshack.com/savage-parts?product_id=3424

https://www.gunshack.com/savage-parts?product_id=3421

https://www.gunshack.com/savage-parts?product_id=2893

Honestly, I would not use the washer (#3), and use one of Desh’s Bolt Lift kits instead. Also, I would use the BAS (Bolt Assembly Screw or Big A**….yeah, you got it! #6) and just modify the BAS I have.

[PhilC]

Here are a couple FAQ topics that might interest you

Bolt Lift Kits - https://www.savageshooters.com/content.php?126-Understanding-Bolt-Lift-Kits

Light Primer Strikes - https://www.savageshooters.com/content.php?252-gunsmithing_1

Desh's bolt lift kits did nothing for the two rifles I tried them in, Fred explains why. Bat, if you want one PM your mailing address.

[Bat Rastard]

The rifle went back to Savage. They had it a month.
They made adjustments, tested it and returned it Saturday.
Sunday, 3 of 16 rounds did not ignite.
Today I installed a 32# Wolf Spring. It lit the same 3 rounds the factory spring would not. The factory spring had hit each round 3 times.

[Dave Hoback]

LOL! :rolleyes:

Well, good. Hope you enjoy it. This could be you after shooting it awhile!:eek:
https://i.ibb.co/q0cF4dK/97-D77-C0-C-1169-43-F3-AC7-F-405-A15-DDDAAC.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[Bat Rastard]

A rifle with a heavy bolt lift, that fires is more desirable to me than a rifle with a delightful bolt lift and fires intermittently.

Savage had it, and did not fix it.
I don't know how many test fires they did, but it wasn't enough.

[Robinhood]

Bat, are you reloading?
I have had my hands on dozens and dozens and never had a light primer strike after I assembled the bolt... dry no lube on the internals (cept maybe the lift kit and the lugs.)
Check out PhilC's suggested links.

If you buy a Lift Kit, then go with the likes of Stockades or the single point of contact type.
http://www.stockadegunstocks.com/4.html
https://www.tacticalworks.com/savage-titanium-bolt-lift-kit-by-lumley-arms.html
DIY
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/diy-savage-bolt-lift-kit.32345/

[Dave Hoback]

Yes, I agree Robin. There is something else going on & the heavier Wolf spring is just a bandaid. Whether it be limited pin fall, hang up in the sleeve or faulty factory spring, who knows. And that Savage was unable to duplicate the condition, maybe there is something being left out? Anyone’s guess.

Oh, and by recommending Desh’s lift kit, I meant for changing to the New style firing pin. I prefer the single contact point as well, however, single contact point can not be used with the cocking indicator. Desh’s kit is the only one for cocking indicator firing pins. I have the one I made using Tungsten Carbide & an Si3N4 bearing ball and that was the best one I’ve ever used! But I currently use the Lumley kit simply for the Titanium BAS.

[Robinhood]

Yes, I agree Robin. There is something else going on & the heavier Wolf spring is just a bandaid. Whether it be limited pin fall, hang up in the sleeve or faulty factory spring, who knows. And that Savage was unable to duplicate the condition, maybe there is something being left out? Anyone’s guess.

Oh, and by recommending Desh’s lift kit, I meant for changing to the New style firing pin. I prefer the single contact point as well, however, single contact point can not be used with the cocking indicator. Desh’s kit is the only one for cocking indicator firing pins. I have the one I made using Tungsten Carbide & an Si3N4 bearing ball and that was the best one I’ve ever used! But I currently use the Lumley kit simply for the Titanium BAS.

Yeah. the harder surface is better do to brinneling of a softer material. BTW I was not arguing with you regarding the new pin, but for the older ones......

For the OP: If you think brass being sized .004" under chamber dimensions is not a problem, think of the dampening effect of that case being pushed forward and decelerating the firing pin. the factory firing pin is already too heavy.

Your heavier wolf spring only increases your bolt lift. Try only bumping that shoulder .001" if any or re headspace the barrel so the brass fits closer. I am betting when you close the gap on the sized brass your issue goes away using the factory spring and a dry bolt assembly.

[Dave Hoback]

I agree. Also need to adjust that pin protrusion a good bit. That .067” is just reducing firing pin fall. (Travel)

[Bat Rastard]

These are indeed handloads.
The brass is virgin Peterson brass. I do not have a 6 BR case gage, to measure it to an actual known zero. I do have a Forster Dataum Dial. The fired brass moves .004 from the Virgin brass. I suspect the factory virgin brass is likely -.002 to allow it to chamber in anything.
That would put my chamber at a plus .002, which is a reasonable place to be.
Savage checked the headspace and said it was good. They did not innumerate their assessment.
Loading this brass for the 2nd trip through the rifle, I am pushing the shoulder between .0015 and .002

When I installed the spring, I also set the protrusion to .045

[Robinhood]

Bat, Good move on the protrusion adjustment. Another 1/4 urn would be OK but you already gained .022". When troubleshooting your issue, facts prevail. Assuming your case sizing dimensions leaves you blind. However, this is your rifle and if you like a heavy bolt lift and looser than necessary cases that may be the cause of your FTF,(this all is with the understanding that you are not tripping the safety blade) by all means carry on.

However if you want to know what you got, look at your primer to see if it pushed out a slight amount after firing. That is a definitive way to check for over sizing even if it doesn't tell you the amount. Also try some cellophane/Scotch tape on the case head. Trim it close and try to chamber it. If it chambers you have around .004" or plus oversize. If the bolt struggles to close maybe less than .004". The real solution is to measure your chamber length and case accurately. In the grand scheme of things .004" is minuscule. In case fit to chamber headspace, it is a considerable amount and can cause light primer strikes. What if it is .006 or >?

You could even back off your die an 1/8 turn and wait until you need to adjust with minute amounts to get them to chamber.

Good luck with your Journey

[Bat Rastard]

USPS brought me a Whidden case gage today.
Fired brass measures just under +.002
I have no virgin brass left to measure, but my previous estimate of it being -.002 looks to have been a reasonable estimate.
The primers aren't moving and they look great after firing.
This Savage had a weak spring.