Bad Bore

[Hylander]

Let me try this again.
Don't know why go daddy block my last post about this.
Anyway, after shooting my new 110 Hunter in .223, it took forever to clean the copper fouling and never did get it all. Properly cleaned before shooting, then Properly broke in.
Decided to bore scope it.
Well the bore looks like D4 cat tracks.
So it goes back tomorrow, I asked Savage to install a new barrel. Lady said turn around time is 5-8 weeks.

[Hylander]

Pic of bore

[Dave Hoback]

Yes, I found that quite odd with the Go Daddy blockage, LOL!! Anyhoo..

If you were to do a search you would find threads almost identical yours posted about every 1-3 months by NEW Savage owners with Bore Scopes, at least as far back as I’ve been here (2016). Probably back to the beginning in 2006. The more important question is how many does it shoot? Sure, cleaning a barrel can be tedious. And that does add time. You could try another Copper Solvent. I assure you, it will all come out with some doing. And that will lesson as you shoot it. Barrels are a consumable resource. I recommend you simply shoot it until accuracy fades then get a good aftermarket barrel. Moot point I guess since you made up your mind. Here’s the point: The new barrel you get from Savage is very likely to have those same machining marks in the bore. Good luck though.

Perhaps one day we will live in a society where each barrel is judged not by the marks in their bores, but by the content of their shooting character, LOL!

[Turkeytider]

I almost bought a bore scope once. Then I realized I wouldn`t know what the hell I was looking at anyway, so I`ve just concentrated on how the gun shoots. I don`t care what it looks like in there if the bullets are hitting the target where I want them to. Well, most of the time.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

First problem??? BORE SCOPE!! You've got 5 shots going in the same hole and your new BORE SCOPE tells you your barrel is junk???
You've cleaned the barrel, it still looks like chicken scratch, copper up the wazoo but you're still shooing bug holes. WHO you gunna believe??
Same thing with a Chronograph. How fast?? Never seen anybody out run one of my shots. And you CAN clean your barrel too much.
Don't sweat the small stuff. ;)

[Slowpoke Slim]

OP,

As has been said, that particular pattern of machine marks is pretty common on Savage barrels. It MAY or MAY NOT affect the way it shoots. My first Savage was worse than that, HOWEVER, it did affect the way it shot. It would shoot the first 3 shots almost touching when the barrel was clean, raw steel. But, as you continued to shoot it, the group pattern got steadily larger as you went. It never stopped growing in size. I would be at 1 foot by 1 foot patterns by the time I gave up in disgust at around 25-30 shots.

And it would take forever to get all the copper out during cleaning. Nothing helped the bore "smooth out". I tried bore paste, the "polish" as well as the course grit. I even tried fire lapping the bore. Nada. I did find that the method of putting a plug (sold in various parent case types by Sinclair's) in the chamber and literally filling the bore with solvent and letting it stand for a day was the best way to get the copper out.

This was on a BVSS in 22-250. I bought it for a prairie dog gun, which means lots of shooting during field days, and needing to clean it in "field conditions" if it needed cleaning. Anyway, I finally gave up on it and swapped out the barrel for a new McGowen barrel (this was the first one I ever did, Jim at Northland walked me through it via phone).

OP, I will tell you this, IF you send your rifle back to Savage, the first thing they are going to do is "test shoot" it with a 3 shot group.

If those 3 shots "meet" their accuracy "criteria", they will send it back to you and say the rifle is fine.

My advice is, If the guns shoots good (holes touching) and STAYS THAT WAY, I would just shoot it. If the gun's accuracy gets worse the more you shoot it, I would just rebarrel the rifle with a drop in replacement barrel.

[PhilC]

Nothing I can add that hasn't already been said, except to say your barrel condition is normal.

I like my borescope but I don't use it to determine how effective my cleaning methods are. I use it to monitor bore condition when a rifle is shooting good, and then again when accuracy falls off so I have relatively good indication of barrel equilibrium.

You can't see a carbon ring without a borescope and that is something, IMO, you do want to stay ahead of.

[Dave Hoback]

I almost bought a bore scope once. Then I realized I wouldn`t know what the hell I was looking at anyway, so I`ve just concentrated on how the gun shoots. I don`t care what it looks like in there if the bullets are hitting the target where I want them to. Well, most of the time.

This post should make people think. And Mikie, stating the problem being a bore scope. So many shooters now buy these little scope tools having no idea what they are looking at. While the marks aren’t pretty, they just don’t matter, unless it’s cause for accuracy inconsistency. Even then, if a new rifle is shooting inconsistently, the bore is the last thing to suspect. This is an area where our modern world, with easy & inexpensive access to a borescope has failed us! It’s led to this new group of shooters who trash their barrel before ever shooting a single shot! And in this scenario with several very knowledgeable voices, and a venue with the most Savage rifle information anywhere online…. I’m still very skeptical the OP is even listening, and will still likely send it back to Savage because he’s convinced himself it’s a problem. Unfortunately, when that seed is planted in a man’s brain, it typically will grow regardless of facts. It’s just our nature.

[Robinhood]

I remember one guy who thought he had a custom barrel with ratchet rifling.

[Dave Hoback]

Lol! Pure Customisize!

​

[Hylander]

Yep, the Op is listening and yes it is already is on its way back. While I do appreciate everyone's input, that bore is unacceptable to me. I did come up with a load that shot well but after only a few groups accuracy started to suffer. That is why I scoped it. Copper fouling was bad after less than 30 rounds and took a lot of elbow grease to clean out. I have owned several Savage rifles in different calibers and this is the only one that had a bore like this. I only had one barrel like this and it was a Lother Walther, which they agreed was not acceptable and replaced it. Pretty sure Savage will replace the barrel as the lady I talked to, saw the pics I sent and agreed it looked like bad chatter.
Anyway, looking forward to getting it back, in the mean time I may buy another Savage to keep me busy.

[tomme boy]

It is NOT CHATTER, it is not just savage that has these reamer marks. That is what they are. It shows the feed rate that the reamer was sent in at. It is reamed after drilling. Some manufactures lap the bore after reaming but most don't. As you can see. What I would be worried about is if the marks come and go away. That means you have inconsistency in the bore. That will effect how it shoots.

Savage has a better reputation for shooting well over a lot of other brands. But I have had 4 of them that were 3-4moa shooters and they were the ones that got torn apart to be project guns. I expect a factory gun to shoot like dog poop. Then if it doesn't then I got a good one.

And don't bother cleaning the copper out. It will shoot better if you leave it alone. Use a powder solvent and that is all that is needed for a long time. A very clean barrel can shoot like dog poop. Most like to shoot with a consistent layer of copper and fouling.

[Turkeytider]

It is NOT CHATTER, it is not just savage that has these reamer marks. That is what they are. It shows the feed rate that the reamer was sent in at. It is reamed after drilling. Some manufactures lap the bore after reaming but most don't. As you can see. What I would be worried about is if the marks come and go away. That means you have inconsistency in the bore. That will effect how it shoots.

Savage has a better reputation for shooting well over a lot of other brands. But I have had 4 of them that were 3-4moa shooters and they were the ones that got torn apart to be project guns. I expect a factory gun to shoot like dog poop. Then if it doesn't then I got a good one.

And don't bother cleaning the copper out. It will shoot better if you leave it alone. Use a powder solvent and that is all that is needed for a long time. A very clean barrel can shoot like dog poop. Most like to shoot with a consistent layer of copper and fouling.

With my rifles, which are hunting rifles but which I enjoy at the range, where a hunting load hits first shot out of a cold, clean barrel is of GREAT interest to me. Rounds after that are gravy. I`m on the cusp of spending close to $1400 on a Savage factory rifle and I damn sure do not expect it to shoot like " dog poop "! My shooting sessions already have one source of " dog poop " already in play ( my marksmanship ability at times ). Certainly can`t take two!

[PhilC]

Should I post a pic of my 12FV barrel? Hmm...

[BobT]

You can't see a carbon ring without a borescope and that is something, IMO, you do want to stay ahead of.

This is what I use my borescope for most of the time. I work part time at a little gunsmith shop and cheap borescopes have brought us a lot of business and some pretty nice take off barrels to boot.

[Hylander]

It is NOT CHATTER, it is not just savage that has these reamer marks. That is what they are. It shows the feed rate that the reamer was sent in at. It is reamed after drilling. Some manufactures lap the bore after reaming but most don't. As you can see. What I would be worried about is if the marks come and go away. That means you have inconsistency in the bore. That will effect how it shoots.

Savage has a better reputation for shooting well over a lot of other brands. But I have had 4 of them that were 3-4moa shooters and they were the ones that got torn apart to be project guns. I expect a factory gun to shoot like dog poop. Then if it doesn't then I got a good one.

And don't bother cleaning the copper out. It will shoot better if you leave it alone. Use a powder solvent and that is all that is needed for a long time. A very clean barrel can shoot like dog poop. Most like to shoot with a consistent layer of copper and fouling.


May not be the proper term, but since Lother Walther and Savage techs called it chatter thats what I'm calling it.
Do you really buy a new gun expecting it to shoot bad? Sorry, but I expect what I spend my money on to be decent quality.
Why should companies care about QC, if the end user will settle for what ever they get.
Also have to disagree about leaving the copper fouling alone for a long time. A little fouling yes, but a lot will deteriorate accuracy. Again accuracy started to suffer after about 30 rounds.

[prdatr]

Let me try this again.
Don't know why go daddy block my last post about this.
Anyway, after shooting my new 110 Hunter in .223, it took forever to clean the copper fouling and never did get it all. Properly cleaned before shooting, then Properly broke in.
Decided to bore scope it.
Well the bore looks like D4 cat tracks.
So it goes back tomorrow, I asked Savage to install a new barrel. Lady said turn around time is 5-8 weeks.

Yikes.

[tomme boy]

May not be the proper term, but since Lother Walther and Savage techs called it chatter thats what I'm calling it.
Do you really buy a new gun expecting it to shoot bad? Sorry, but I expect what I spend my money on to be decent quality.
Why should companies care about QC, if the end user will settle for what ever they get.
Also have to disagree about leaving the copper fouling alone for a long time. A little fouling yes, but a lot will deteriorate accuracy. Again accuracy started to suffer after about 30 rounds.

They call it that because they have to be able to talk to the lowest IQ on the phone and can understand what they are saying. If they replace the barrel don't expect it to be in any other shape than the one you sent in. As long as the reamer marks are not raised it will not matter if they are there or not. Savage barrels and others come around and start shooting better after a few hundred rounds. Why? because they need to be broken in right. Lets hear how you did that. It might tell us something useful.

These cheap bore scopes are really starting to wear thin on lots of manufactures. I have spoke to several barrel manufacturers that are going to be modifying their warranties because of them. Right now they are just replacing stuff because they don't want to deal with people that don't have a clue to what they are talking about.

Good luck with your new barrel. And this time make sure you are not shooting Wolf steel case ammo. It might shoot better.

[charlie b]

While I don't disagree on what Savage might do, those are not reamer marks.

Note that the lands and grooves are marked equally. A reamer, such as one used in final dimensioning of the bore, would only mark the lands of the barrel. These marks had to be made during the rifling process. The use of 'button' rifling means all the grooves are cut in one pass of the broach. These marks are typical of a broach that is worn, used with too little lube, pushed too hard/fast, etc. The broach is rotated during use, but, it is rotated to match the rifling twist. And I also call those 'chatter' marks, which I learned from the master machinist who first taught me use of metal working tools.

[Hylander]

They call it that because they have to be able to talk to the lowest IQ on the phone and can understand what they are saying. If they replace the barrel don't expect it to be in any other shape than the one you sent in. As long as the reamer marks are not raised it will not matter if they are there or not. Savage barrels and others come around and start shooting better after a few hundred rounds. Why? because they need to be broken in right. Lets hear how you did that. It might tell us something useful.

These cheap bore scopes are really starting to wear thin on lots of manufactures. I have spoke to several barrel manufacturers that are going to be modifying their warranties because of them. Right now they are just replacing stuff because they don't want to deal with people that don't have a clue to what they are talking about.

Good luck with your new barrel. And this time make sure you are not shooting Wolf steel case ammo. It might shoot better.

Didn't realize I was lowest IQ calling them.
I am not new to firearms, shooting or working on them, I do it day 5 days a week. I have a friend that is a gun smith, I personally know a master gun smith. I shoot a cast silhouette match once a month. Yes, I do have a clue what they are talking about. Yes, I do expect a better barrel when I get it back. Did I say I used Wolf ammo? Pretty sure I did not say what ammo I used. I said I properly broke in the barrel. You act like I'm trying to bash Savage and that I'm stupid, you are wrong on both accounts. You just seem bent on discrediting me for some reason.
Just so you know, ammo was Federal AE 55gr. For about the first 20 rounds, then hand loads.
Not going to detail my break-in procedure, but it takes about an hour, slow fire and lots of cleaning.
Anyway, heading to range now to do some shooting as the weather is great.