Question about cooking and bolt lift on elite precision 338LM

[Andrew863]

So I'll start by saying this is my first new savage and really my first ever since I have got into long range precision, or anything other then deer hunting with bolt guns. I have a few reminton 700s and a couple custom actions. I work on guns quite often but this is my first time on a Savage and I hope I can get more help other then send it to xyz and he can do that work. So I measured the cocking distance and it is right around .205 in the back of the bolt in the forward position. When I lift the bolt it protrudes.060 out of the BAS. Then on close it falls to right around flush. My question is there any way to limit the amount of rearward travle of the firing pin,where I'm not pulling the firing pin back a extra .050 for it then to come forward and be caught by the sear? I have had a little time to study the action the last few days but I'm still not 100 percent sure on the function of the action yet. My guess is the cooking ramp would be the only way to control this? Tell me if I'm out in left field.

[Robinhood]

Hello Andrew. Savage has had a couple of different firing pins on their 110/10 models. The cocking indicator moves with the firing pin. So if you get .205" cocking distance at the cocking piece, you should get the same at the rear of the bolt.

Digging in a little deeper, is there a specific reason to reduce your cocking distance? What are you looking to change? Bolt lift? The first thing you will notice is, depending on the amount you reduce the rearward travel, will be a lighter impact on the primer. You might impact primer ignition. It depends on how you go about it.

I am guessing the question that you want to concentrate on is the bolt lift? What or which type firing pin and spring do you have? The new type has a decent usable bolt lift. The older style often needs to be refined and can be worked to a much improved lift.

So, what do you have and how bad is it?

[Andrew863]

I have the newest style, I just picked this gun up a couple days ago. Mainly wanting to lighten bolt lift if possible. The firing pin when fully cooked is right around .205 to maybe .215. But when I open or lift the bolt the firing pin goes back to around .265. Then when I close the bolt it drops to where it is caught by the sear, and is at the .205 when the bolt is closed and the gun is ready to fire. So when I lift the bolt I am moving the firing pin a extra .050 and that is also the point to where the bolt handle is at the most stiff point. Just want to see if there is anyway to get rid of the over travel of the firing pin.

[Robinhood]

Gotcha. That is a tough one. You definitely understand the problem. As you stated, you loose some of that stroke on the hand off.

You would either have to move the Trigger(or the trigger sear catch) forward or change the ramp at the top of the stroke. I would give Fred Moreo at Sharp Shooter supply a call. I don't know if there are any user mods that you can use without risking damage. Unless you are well versed in annealing and tempering, I don't think I would mess with bending the sear.

[Robinhood]

I have never measured the affect after installing and aftermarket trigger. It could help if they altered the location of the trigger sear catch. Very interested to hear others responses.

[Andrew863]

The way I see it, and again I'm very new to the savage action, there are two ways to go. Lengthen the sear to the point where when the handoff happens its taking full advantage of the amount the cocking cam ramp is pulling the pin back. Or the other route would be to reshape the cocking cam ramp where the cocking cam or pin ( I'm not sure what it is called ) doesn't have as much reward travle. Or maybe both and meet in the middle. I would like to know if there are optimal numbers for how far the firing pin needs to move rearward for proper, accurate ignition. I had decided to just leave this thing alone and just shoot it, but once I got it in my hands I realize how spoiled I am with my custom actions I have been shooting. Getting the raceways smoothed out on the action and working over the trigger helped alot, but I just want to learn more about it even if I don't go any further. Im going to go send some rounds down range with it today. I was amazed how coppered up the barrel was when I got it. It took alot of work to get ithe bore down to bare metal.

[Andrew863]

I have never measured the affect after installing and aftermarket trigger. It could help if they altered the location of the trigger sear catch. Very interested to hear others responses.
I would also like to know if the Jard trigger for example, with replacing the sear messes with this. I have a friend that has one, I may have to try and get my hands on it.

[charlie b]

If your goal is reduced bolt lift force, then playing with the sear location won't do anything. You would still be moving the FP back that same amount, it just would not 'fall' as far before the sear engaged it.

What you would need to do is work on the cocking ramp in the bolt. I would try it on a spare bolt first, cause if you over do it you have a non-functioning rifle, ie, it won't move the FP back far enough for the sear to catch it.

I would first just polish the ramp in the bolt and then polish the bolt pin that pulls the FP. There was a 'kit' for reducing the cocking force that involved using a mall bearing or thrust washer in the BAS. Here is a description of how well each of those work.

https://www.savageshooters.com/content.php?126-Understanding-Bolt-Lift-Kits

[Dave Hoback]

Like Charlie is pointing out, it has to do with the cocking ramp. The cocking piece pin is pushed up the ramp & must clear that little nub as seen in the photo. I actually eliminate this little nub, but the firing pin will be drawn back the same way. I use the old style adjustable firing pin.

https://i.ibb.co/BsdsjXc/C83-C48-E9-3-B51-4-C43-8568-63-F63-B102704.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[Andrew863]

Starting to think I don't have enough reward travel of the firing pin when cocked. With it pulling it back almost .260 but then at handoff it drops down to .210 at the point its ready to fire. I had some light strikes today at the range, I came home and pulled the bolt apart again and cleaned all the lube a grease out of it. Then put some sized brass in with primers and they seemed to pop fine. I checked pin protrusion and it was .050 so I'm good there, how much firing pin travel is optimal for good ignition?

[Andrew863]

If your goal is reduced bolt lift force, then playing with the sear location won't do anything. You would still be moving the FP back that same amount, it just would not 'fall' as far before the sear engaged it.

What you would need to do is work on the cocking ramp in the bolt. I would try it on a spare bolt first, cause if you over do it you have a non-functioning rifle, ie, it won't move the FP back far enough for the sear to catch it.

I would first just polish the ramp in the bolt and then polish the bolt pin that pulls the FP. There was a 'kit' for reducing the cocking force that involved using a mall bearing or thrust washer in the BAS. Here is a description of how well each of those work.

https://www.savageshooters.com/content.php?126-Understanding-Bolt-Lift-Kits

My comments on the sear loaction was more about ignition. Since my bolt pulls the pin back .260 and then drops to .210. So I'm cocking a extra .050 more then what I'm using. What's the proper travel for the firing pin on a savage?

[Dave Hoback]

1/4” is all the travel any 110 will have. The ones with adjustable firing pin the travel can go more or less, but a 1/4” is still the max.

Put a shim behind your firing pin spring to preload the spring a bit more and you should not have more light primer strikes. This has been discussed before concerning the 1-piece pins and light primer strikes. Robin has even mentioned in a thread he believes the counterboring in the BAS for the spring was machined too deeply. I agree with his assessment. Although this was concerning the Axis/Edge. Still, live light strikes with the 110s have been seen as well. Preload the spring a bit more & you should be fine.

[charlie b]

So, two issues to deal with. Bolt lift and ignition. Increase pre-load and cocking force increases.

If you've only had a couple fails to fire I'd wonder if it was primers and not the FP.

If it were me I'd work on the bolt lift first. Polish the ramp and pin. Maybe install the ball bearing kit. See if that fixes the bolt lift issue. Then see if I still had any failure to fire. If so, then increase spring pre-load.

As Robin suggested, send a note to Fred and see what you can do.

You do have a point about 'losing' that amount of FP travel when the FP 'drops' to the sear. That would be a more involved fix. I'll have to measure one someday and see if it is a common thing.

[Andrew863]

I think part of my failure to fire was something to do with oil and grease getting to the firing pin. I tore the bolt down and cleaned it all out and made sure the pin stayed dry. I put a few primed cases in after that and they popped fine with a good dent in the primer. The ammo was fine, but the FP wasn't wasn't hitting the primer hard enough at the range, it was only putting a small dent in the primer, nothing like what it was after cleaning out the bolt. I am more worried with the amount that I am losing in the hand off to where I am only getting .200 of fire pin fall when I pull the trigger. If possible can someone else measure what you are getting and see if losing that .050 is a common thing for the 110. The bolt lift is really not a issue as much as me wanting to learn more about the action and just play with it. Its getting smoother as I use it, I was more curious then anything on the bolt lift to find ways to improve it if possible. I will play with it in the future once I know I have the failures to fire taken car of. The only way I could see getting that .050 of FP travel would be to add material to the sear where it contacts the cocking piece, is my thinking correct?

[Dave Hoback]

There’s more to it than just adding material to the Sear/Bolt release. If you pull the Action from the stock & support it, then manipulate the bolt & look at the Sear & trigger engagement, it’s sort of a “hand off” of the Cocking Pin. So when the bolt is locked & ready to fire, the Sear is held by the trigger shelf. But when the bolt is lifted(while cocked), the Sear moves away from the trigger shelf. This is the hand off, as the bolt is raised, the rear baffle is repositioned and the cocking pin is set back on the bolt ramp shelf(like in the picture I posted). Quite a few things going on here. So I can tell you the amount the amount of travel you are getting with the 1-piece firing pin is correct. Again, the MAX amount of movement possible in the stock setup is .250”, but that doesn’t take into account those trade offs, machining differences, play involved. In a perfect world, the adjustable firing pin assemblies are likely capable of a bit more travel overall within that .250” limit, being their…well, adjustable! Also, there’s a trick in threading through the back off the Cocking Piece and installing a short set screw. This is counter the noticeable play between the Cocking Piece & Cocking Pin in the hole. Being the Pin is load bearing, any play means the Striker(firing pin) can lose some travel. The set screw is turned in to just make contact with the Cocking Pin, keeping it perfectly straight with zero play. No way to do a set screw in the new style. Although I’ve heard the 2019+ firing pin assemblies have a better load bearing surface for the Cocking Pin from the get go, since the Cocking Piece is part of the Firing Pin Striker.

Like you indicated, verify there are no other Light Primer Strikes, then grab one of these kits from Desh and I wager you will be pleased. https://deshind.com/product/savage-bolt-lift-kit-for-all-savages-with-single-piece-firing-pin-2019/

[Robinhood]

That pin drop is actually a good thing. It gives the bolt time to rotate enough for the bolt lugs to engage. If that loss of .050" really gets you, build up(tig) the area of the sear that catches the cocking piece pin. The part that slides up into the action. Smooth it out on the sides and file or grind it a little taller than factory. When opening the bolt the sear must pass the trigger shelf. Test the hand-off and file it down until you get the trigger to set and also allow the bolt lugs to engage.

[Robinhood]

Also with .050" protrusion you are probably loosing more than .025" of travel leaving you with about .185" travel from sear release to primer ignition maybe less. IMHO the gains are getting going to be keeping the bolt clean from oil and grease. Possibly reducing the protrusion .015" and if someone is offering a better spring.......

Has anyone found a fit for something like this to go between the springs, Desh?
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fae01.alicdn.com%2Fkf%2FHTB18lkhbi QnBKNjSZFmq6AApVXaX%2F10PCS-7x17x6mm-Miniature-Axial-Ball-Flat-Washers-Thrust-Bearings-3-Parts-ABEC-1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=c14f5ed0d9d2bff11bb76fd2ccd799eac21cd31fbe9529 9601c5c1246403c2c5&ipo=images

[Dave Hoback]

Yup… pretty certain I know which one it is. Although I waiting until I get ahold of a new firing pin to measure. Anyway, it’s just easier for people to get the whole thing from Desh, with the washer.

[Robinhood]

Yup… pretty certain I know which one it is. Although I waiting until I get ahold of a new firing pin to measure. Anyway, it’s just easier for people to get the whole thing from Desh, with the washer.

I didn't know if his was for the lift kit or the spring spacer. Seems like a decent idea for a spring spacer.

[Andrew863]

That pin drop is actually a good thing. It gives the bolt time to rotate enough for the bolt lugs to engage. If that loss of .050" really gets you, build up(tig) the area of the sear that catches the cocking piece pin. The part that slides up into the action. Smooth it out on the sides and file or grind it a little taller than factory. When opening the bolt the sear must pass the trigger shelf. Test the hand-off and file it down until you get the trigger to set and also allow the bolt lugs to engage.
That's my plan, a friend of mine that is going to bring me a spare trigger and sear to play with. I'm going to tig it up and work it down and see if that helps. Dave seems to think that will not work but I can't see why, maybe I will find out he is right, but I have nothing to lose other then a trigger that has been setting in a pile of parts. I'm a tool maker so it will be easy to try either way. To limit FP protrusion, do I need to just file the tip or do I need to adjust the firing pin? I haven't really studied the adjustments of the FP.