New Barrel Time

[Dave Hoback]

Just ordered a new barrel. Decided on Criterion from James at NSS. Came down to price. Just couldn’t pass up their deal. First time I’ve spoken to James. It was interesting, funny at some points. Now look, I understand he doesn’t know me, and as the business, he’s making sure that the customer has everything they need. But I almost wanted to say a couple times in a nice way, “look my friend, I know we haven’t met, but trust me I know what I’m doing.” Of course I wouldn’t do that, LOL! Like I said, it was just kinda funny. He repeated a couple times.. “are you sure it’s a Small Shank?” LOL. Yeees.. I’m sure partner!:rolleyes: And he made a couple comments a bit off the cuff, at one point saying “that seems strange”. Anyway, nice guy. So I ordered a 28” Stainless 260 AI with .160” freebore. 1:7.5” twist.


I came so close to ordering a McGowen, but had an email conversation with someone there the day of, and got a red flag during. I’ve been doing all this long enough to know if you sense something wrong leave it be. Bit of a shame. I really did want to give McGowen a try. But I know the Criterion will perform, so I’m happy.

Now the 12-20 week wait for the barrel, LOL! Good thing I’m patient.

[Shooter0302]

:violin:Yep, but those that follow the 7 "P's" are always ahead of the game.

I'm guessing James has been bitten more that once on Bbl.orders and just wants to make 110% sure you'll are both on the same page

[Dave Hoback]

:violin:Yep, but those that follow the 7 "P's" are always ahead of the game.

I'm guessing James has been bitten more that once on Bbl.orders and just wants to make 110% sure you'll are both on the same page


Oh, I couldn’t agree more. No.., I get it completely. That what I said in the beginning, we’ve never met. So he has no idea of what I know. I wasn’t upset or anything. Just thought it was funny.

Same thing happens here at times. Be trying to help someone with a question and ask pretty basic, almost “DUH” questions. But I really try to explain it to those looking for help… “Hey, I’m not trying to disrespect your knowledge. It’s just we don’t know each other.” And yes, I’m sure he’s been blamed, yelled/cursed at for things that WEREN’T his fault because he didn’t ask every detail. So I got where he was coming from.

Was just sharing something I got a chuckle from. Actually, the one thing he commented on was the barrel crown. I indicated I wanted it recessed. I just prefer Recessed crazy and. And he asked, “you sure you want Recessed over 11 degree?” I told him yes, I was sure and just prefer them. (Being the only reason it’s an 11 degree crown is because they didn’t use 12 degree, or 17 degree, or whatever degree, FIRST, LOL!). But I said to him I simply preferred them Recessed and what some believe of barrel crowning is ridiculous. At that point I think he kinda got it, because he chuckled and said, “well, yeah… there’s no accuracy difference, just easier to clean.” I am glad he’s so thorough. And prompt! He sent me an invoice with all the detail within a minute of hanging up. I appreciated that. I’ll definitely deal with him again.

[Slowpoke Slim]

I think I've bought 2 rifles and a half dozen barrels from him many years ago.

Each transaction was smooth from my perspective. I think I still have 4 Mcgowen barrels, very pleased with them, but these were purchased over a dozen years ago.

[PhilC]

James is good and very easy to work with. Don't know that I'll build another anytime soon but he will be the first contact should I decide to.

[tomme boy]

Pretty sure I am going to order a new Criterion from him next week. As you said, it comes down to price. I have had one McGowan and had to send back to get replaced. The last 3"s of the bore looked like a cheese grater.

[Jags]

I just ordered a Criterion from NSS. Should be here this week. Going to try my first barrel swap on a Savage model 12.

[KMW1954]

Was hoping to be doing the same this spring with a new barrel only now facing a life interruption. One being to give up my PT job at the range to play summer school teacher to a grandchild. So that will eliminate my source of disposable income and put a crimp in my gun spending. Last year that averaged about $1500.00 a month spend money.

[astjp2]

I have a crIterion on my m1, tack driver at 500+ yards, out shoots me. Tim

[Dave Hoback]

I have a crIterion on my m1, tack driver at 500+ yards, out shoots me. Tim



Yes, Criterion is probably the most used aftermarket barrel by Savage owners. Considering they are for all intent & purpose the Button Rifled version of Kreiger Barrels. And remember Frank worked at Kreiger even many years before he & Traci Bartlein left Kreiger to start Bartlein Barrels. So, yeah…. Savage guys are quite fond of Criterion.

[KMW1954]

Question on decision for the Criterion barrel over the Shilen barrel from NSS? I was pondering the Shilen on mine.

[Dave Hoback]

Question on decision for the Criterion barrel over the Shilen barrel from NSS? I was pondering the Shilen on mine.

I’ve already used Shillen. That is what the Criterion is replacing. As I had indicated, I very much wanted to try McGowen & was even about to order! But then I got a bad vibe during some emailing back & forth with Dan over there, I decided against it. The Shilen was great, though. It was exceptional quality, the bore was lapped nicely polished & it performed well. My only contention however, it had quite a short throat. I wasn’t even able to load 260 Rem to 2.800” COAL. So I ended up throating myself. In the end, I decided to fall back on Criterion as I know they are proven consistent. I will say, unless you are a hand loader & looking for a custom setup, don’t have any doubt getting the Shilen. I wouldn’t hesitate using them again. However, if I did, I would send them a couple loaded dummy rounds with my longest bullet choice, at the longest COAL I wanted at the lands. But regardless, the Shilen wasn’t available in 260 Ackley Improved (which I was set on), or in 1.7.5 twist (which I was also set on.) Oh, and the Criterion ends up being less expensive for what I wanted as well. Not to mention available in 260AI with a .160” Freebore(VLD or “Match” Chamber)

One gets to a point in all this they simply don’t ask any question. They don’t seek other’s opinions on certain things and do what they want. Go with what your heart says.

[charlie b]

I ended up with a Shilen instead when I got my 6BR. Decision? It was in stock and I got it the next week. I do love it. I would not hesitate to get a Criterion either.

I am glad James was so thorough with the questions. He got me exactly what I needed and nothing more. A pleasure to work with.

I've met a quite a few small business folks through my small business. Some don't like to talk (like me), some will bore you to death, and some are so experienced and enthusiastic about the hobby it is hard not to have a long talk with them.

[KMW1954]

Since this is your thread I hope not to hijack it but I hope to pick your brain and experience. So far the only barrel I have changed is for my Savage, that was another Savage take off that has worked out very well. That is also the barrel I am looking to swap out again with a barrel from NSS. Either a Criterion or a Shilen and still have not decided if I will stay with the 223 or move to the 6ARC. My shooting mentor has talked about freebore but just do not understand how to relate that to NSS and the Shilen barrel. I know they offer a 0 freebore but still unsure what that means to me or the barrel.

[Dave Hoback]

Since this is your thread I hope not to hijack it but I hope to pick your brain and experience. So far the only barrel I have changed is for my Savage, that was another Savage take off that has worked out very well. That is also the barrel I am looking to swap out again with a barrel from NSS. Either a Criterion or a Shilen and still have not decided if I will stay with the 223 or move to the 6ARC. My shooting mentor has talked about freebore but just do not understand how to relate that to NSS and the Shilen barrel. I know they offer a 0 freebore but still unsure what that means to me or the barrel.


No, I don’t mind brother. I enjoy how threads kinda “morph” into other topics related to the original. Makes for fun conversation. Here’s a little video the guy does a pretty good job explaining. His number of .5” is a little wonky, but I think he meant that as the the total Throat area. Although Freebore alone is a smaller space. Anyway, he uses a Barrel cut away which really explains it visually. In the end, if you aren’t reloading, you don’t need to worry about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbyv_95gOdU

[Robinhood]

am glad James was so thorough with the questions. He got me exactly what I needed and nothing more. A pleasure to work with.

I've met a quite a few small business folks through my small business. Some don't like to talk (like me), some will bore you to death, and some are so experienced and enthusiastic about the hobby it is hard not to have a long talk with them.


Yep. James will go off on a tangent and you just ride along.

[tomme boy]

I just ordered a Criterion 223 1-9 twist today. Got a go gauge also. I don't have that one. All my other rifles are based on the 308 gauge.

[charlie b]

Since this is your thread I hope not to hijack it but I hope to pick your brain and experience. So far the only barrel I have changed is for my Savage, that was another Savage take off that has worked out very well. That is also the barrel I am looking to swap out again with a barrel from NSS. Either a Criterion or a Shilen and still have not decided if I will stay with the 223 or move to the 6ARC. My shooting mentor has talked about freebore but just do not understand how to relate that to NSS and the Shilen barrel. I know they offer a 0 freebore but still unsure what that means to me or the barrel.

The SAAMI website is a wealth of information. There is a glossary of terms in there for most things gun related as well as cartridge specs, including both ammo and chamber drawings.

There are several parts to the throat. The first part is a straight dia section called the freebore. Then there can be a tapered section from the freebore to the start of the rifling called the leade. Then there is the start of the rifling, usually tapering from groove to bore dia at an angle of some amount, ~2 deg. For example, the 6mmCM has a freebore of 0.18" and tapered section of 0.12" (angle of tapered rifling is 1 1/2deg). Note, it does not have a leade, only freebore.

Manufacturers do not have to follow SAAMI standards. My 9mm pistol has no freebore or leade or tapered section of rifling (it also has a polygonal bore). SAAMI says it should have a 2deg taper. My .45acp has no freebore or leade, but, does have a taper to the rifling, just like SAAMI says it should have.

If the barrel mfg (or gunsmith) reams the chamber to SAAMI specs you can look up the dimensions. But, a chambering reamer can be made with no throat section and the rest done with a separate reamer. Some of the popular cartridges in precision or bench rest shooting use non-standard reamers. Frequently undersized necks or different throat dimensions. The gunsmith or barrel maker should be able to tell you how they cut the barrel. NSS lists different neck diameters on some of the cartridges for that reason. There are also slightly different chambers, like the .308 Palma. The .223 Wylde (IIRC) is a .223 with a different throat.

Or, if a person wants more freebore or tapered section you can get throat reamers for the common calibers. Brownell's sells a number of them.

[KMW1954]

Anyway, he uses a Barrel cut away which really explains it visually. In the end, if you aren’t reloading, you don’t need to worry about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbyv_95gOdU

Thanks Dave. I did watch and I know what it is I guess I just don't know how to measure what I need and how to relate that to the barrel. With the 223 barrel I am using now I am seating out a 69gr bullet to 1.190" CBTO

[PhilC]

NSS offers throating for Shilen barrels but not Criterion. My Shilen 7BR was throated to dummy rounds I provided.