110 Elite Precision in 223

[Dave Hoback]

CF is correct. 1:8 is good up to 80, no problem. That’s what I use in my AR’s. And the 1:7 will handle the longest, heaviest .224” pills made! Which I guess are the 90gr VLD’s. (You see articles claiming 1:6.5 is needed, but I beg to differ.)

[charlie b]

I have shot past 400, but the accuracy was not great. I could hit at a steel plate at 600 pretty consistently. But it was a good size plate and I was all over it. I will get to a match before I buy a rifle for sure. This would be a major time and money investment. The nearest range over 200yds is over an hour away. And the matches are about 3 hours away. So I will not be rushing.

I hate to say this, but, it may not have been your rifle. When I got my .223 it was my first accurate rifle in over 20 years. I had grown up with military rifles and a deer rifle that was never shot past 100yd. When I was in my 20's I could hit military targets at 400yd with open sights. The Axis was much more accurate and was my first attempt at range since the 70's. I found myself able to squeak out MOA groups, but, could not seem to break that limit.

I finally had to admit it was me and not the rifle. Took several range sessions and a good bag/rest combination before I could get my technique improved. Back to basics kind of thing. Solid position, trigger control, breathing, etc. I finally got myself to settle down and I could get consistent 1/2MOA groups. I just cannot get below that consistently, even with a much better rifle. And yes, it is me. I am just not patient enough and I lose concentration easily.

After that I started on my wind reading at longer ranges. That was another big step for me and I am still not that good at it.

[Dave Hoback]

I wasn’t going to say anything, and since there is no way for us to verify… but Charlie, I agree 100%. I can’t tell you how many former military shooter I ran into while I was an Instructor, who would blame every gun for their own accuracy issues, due to poor consistency. Here are the a couple statements I was tuned in to listen for: “I’m just having a BAD day, accuracy wise.” While those who follow proper Fundamentals of shooting can vary in consistency somewhat from day to day, this is typically caused by something pretty substantial. Feeling under the weather, mentally unfocused, etc. And a “Bad Day” for a good shooter is the difference from shooting 1MOA, to 1.5-2MOA…MAX! The other line I would listen for was, “I’m really accurate with X-Gun, but I just can’t shoot Y-Gun at ALL!” I would tell people proper Fundamentals don’t know or care what firearm you are shooting. And that if they were to line up a Dozen or more quality pistols, I would shoot them ALL, 1 by 1, with very similar accuracy.

Again though, like I said, there is no way for us to verify that. Unless people want to start recording video of themselves shooting for us to see. LOL!

[JustSgtPat]

I hate to say this, but, it may not have been your rifle. When I got my .223 it was my first accurate rifle in over 20 years. I had grown up with military rifles and a deer rifle that was never shot past 100yd. When I was in my 20's I could hit military targets at 400yd with open sights. The Axis was much more accurate and was my first attempt at range since the 70's. I found myself able to squeak out MOA groups, but, could not seem to break that limit.

I finally had to admit it was me and not the rifle. Took several range sessions and a good bag/rest combination before I could get my technique improved. Back to basics kind of thing. Solid position, trigger control, breathing, etc. I finally got myself to settle down and I could get consistent 1/2MOA groups. I just cannot get below that consistently, even with a much better rifle. And yes, it is me. I am just not patient enough and I lose concentration easily.

After that I started on my wind reading at longer ranges. That was another big step for me and I am still not that good at it.

Well I was a SAW gunner so not much transfers to this! I do realize that I probably know just enough to drive myself crazy. But I have always enjoyed afternoons at the range, in and out of uniform. And from what I have seen in the forums the brotherhood is similar also. I look forward to my chance to speed a few days just learning and watching at a match.

[Palmafiddleman]

In my club we have a lady who shoots .223 for Palma matches and often wins. She is an elite shooter who will travel with our US team this year. So people can have success with the .223 at 1000 yds. As the others have noted, you will have better odds of success at 600 than 1000 yds at least initially. The points made about twist and bullet choice are very true. In addition, if you have never shot at 1000 before you will have to learn to read the wind, a bigger factor than if you were competing at 600 yds. Yes with the right barrel and bullets you can do well at 1000 yds.

[charlie b]

Well I was a SAW gunner so not much transfers to this! I do realize that I probably know just enough to drive myself crazy. But I have always enjoyed afternoons at the range, in and out of uniform. And from what I have seen in the forums the brotherhood is similar also. I look forward to my chance to speed a few days just learning and watching at a match.

LOL

It is rewarding when you find a group of folks to shoot with. Good luck in your quest.

[Ernest T]

Well I was a SAW gunner so not much transfers to this! I do realize that I probably know just enough to drive myself crazy. But I have always enjoyed afternoons at the range, in and out of uniform. And from what I have seen in the forums the brotherhood is similar also. I look forward to my chance to speed a few days just learning and watching at a match.

Replied in the wrong place.

[Dave Hoback]

In my club we have a lady who shoots .223 for Palma matches and often wins. She is an elite shooter who will travel with our US team this year. So people can have success with the .223 at 1000 yds. As the others have noted, you will have better odds of success at 600 than 1000 yds at least initially. The points made about twist and bullet choice are very true. In addition, if you have never shot at 1000 before you will have to learn to read the wind, a bigger factor than if you were competing at 600 yds. Yes with the right barrel and bullets you can do well at 1000 yds.

While as we’ve discussed, a person can certainly use 223 at 1000yds, but in our world now of the 6mm’s, the 223 won’t even be remotely competitive. Obviously, doesn’t apply in the 223/308 only division.

[charlie b]

Yep. IIRC, F-TR is .223 or .308, scope and bipod w/rear bag, prone. US Palma is .223 or .308, open sights, unsupported prone. International Palma is .308 and 155gn bullets. There was some talk of Palma rule changes, like adding scopes and/or cartridges, but, I haven't seen anything on that yet. Probably won't until the new Army cartridge is adopted fully. Then might see it added to the US Palma and F-TR.

With the faster twist, 80 or 90gn bullets, and a longish barrel I suspect a .223 would be give the .308 loads a run for their money at 1000yd. The only problem would be getting them to fit in a magazine. Don't think AICS mags would allow seating them out very far.

[Ernest T]

I hate to say this, but, it may not have been your rifle. When I got my .223 it was my first accurate rifle in over 20 years. I had grown up with military rifles and a deer rifle that was never shot past 100yd. When I was in my 20's I could hit military targets at 400yd with open sights. The Axis was much more accurate and was my first attempt at range since the 70's. I found myself able to squeak out MOA groups, but, could not seem to break that limit.

I finally had to admit it was me and not the rifle. Took several range sessions and a good bag/rest combination before I could get my technique improved. Back to basics kind of thing. Solid position, trigger control, breathing, etc. I finally got myself to settle down and I could get consistent 1/2MOA groups. I just cannot get below that consistently, even with a much better rifle. And yes, it is me. I am just not patient enough and I lose concentration easily.

After that I started on my wind reading at longer ranges. That was another big step for me and I am still not that good at it.

You sound like me, a little of it is age, but I've never been a patient person. It gets even worse when I shoot four rounds close together, then the pressure is on to not screw up the fifth one. It happens too often to be just bad luck!

[charlie b]

Yep, I know the feeling well LOL I can also tell the difference when I get toward the end of a session.

[PhilC]

Happens to me as well but am getting better. Confidence in your equipment and load really help.

[JustSgtPat]

LOL

It is rewarding when you find a group of folks to shoot with. Good luck in your quest.

Thank you. There is a mid-range match in two weeks I plan to attend. The comradery is just as important as the shooting if not more so!