.360 Buckhammer

[bootsmcguire]

I do find it odd that manufacturers are trying to market to 4-5 states' laws and hoping enough of the other states' hunters and shooters hop on with a new shiny toy.


Many of these states are some of the best trophy whitetail hunting in the country (not saying there are not good deer in other areas) and have a pretty high number of hunters per sq. mile average so sales would generate pretty quickly. Especially when you figure that most of these states have been shotgun slug only states up until the last 10-15 years or so. For these guys switching over to any kind of rifle was like opening up pandora's box (in relation to hunting things other than paper or varmints). And factor in the human desire to go out in the woods with something "better" than your buddy has that many people are afflicted with and you get a pretty concentrated potential buying market. Y'all in the rest of the world have been able to attend that party for decades and we just finally got the invite, even if we have to go with a straightwall chaperone. LOL

[Mjshell]

Boots,
Having spent my first 22 years in Iowa I commend you on a great perspective on how Iowegions hunt and think. I have two brothers that still live and hunt deer in Iowa. They switched to the 350 legend as soon as it came out.

Mark

[Stumpkiller]

Some of the straight wall states have a maximum case length of 1.8" which the. 405 and .458WM do not meet. I do find it odd that manufacturers are trying to market to 4-5 states' laws and hoping enough of the other states' hunters and shooters hop on with a new shiny toy.

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

You're correct, of course. In 1980 & later in NY I hunted for woodchuck with a .270 Win loaded with a 110 gr bullet in the same farms/fields I was restricted to shotgun slug only that had a region wide rifle prohabition during deer season. Go figure. I could hunt red squirrels year-round (except the four week regular deer season) with a .338 Lapua if I chose to . . . but not use a rifle of any size for whitetail deer. Happily my region opened to rifle a few years back. Thank God.

We cannot expect sensible game laws from legislators who have never hunted, or even been off pavement.

[J.Baker]

when big green was on the block it was sectioned off, the ammo mfg was bought by a another group , Ruger aquired Marlin. This 30 buckhammer sounds similar to several other cartridges as noted, but I will toss in the 7 mm international R, along the others_ 3855 , 7mm Waters 375 win. and the Legend, Herrets and a couple others i can't put my finger on right now. In the end run it is the straight walled case rules and " commercially mfg Rounds" which is the gottcha part.
REM 357 max was .01 reduced length of Mr Gates 357 cartridge- if memory serves me correctly, the Legend comes along with .01 added back on but in .355 ( .358 pills work just fine in it) As I have not seen a print of the of 30 buck cartridge i can only surmise the above.

Vista Outdoors now owns Remington Ammunition (along with Federal, which is also the parent company for CCI and Speer)

[J.Baker]

I never did understand the logic behind the .350 Legend using .355" (9mm) bullets. The cartridge was clearly designed to be used in modern bolt-action rifles as well as the AR15 platform - all of which can use pointy bullets, so why handicap it with round or blunt nosed pistol bullets with the B.C. of a cinder block? If I were to ever decide to hang up my 94 Big-Bore in .375 Winchester in favor of a .350 Legend, I'd order a custom .358 barrel just so I could take advantage of rolling my own ammo with rifle bullets.

As for the .360 Buckhammer, looks like Federal's answer to the .350 Legend. Big downside is that it's based on the .30-30's rimmed case which means it's not going to be compatible with most of today's most popular rifle platforms.

Personally I'd still like to see an updated version of the .375 Winchester cartridge - maybe based off a 7mm Rem Mag case to retain the straight wall? Plenty of good .375cal bullets out there already with higher B.C.'s, and you could even come up with some good subsonic loads with the VLD-style bullets for hunting suppressed.

[Magnum Mike]

I never did understand the logic behind the .350 Legend using .355" (9mm) bullets. It was all about what is readily available in AR-15 barrels and there was/is a tremendous number of manufacturers of 9mm (.355") barrels whereas there is a complete lack of .357" AR-15 barrels.

The new 8.6 Blackout, .338" bullets, looks promising. Subsonic 200 - 300 grain bullets will surely bring down a lot of critters with some serious authority!

[bootsmcguire]

Boots,
Having spent my first 22 years in Iowa I commend you on a great perspective on how Iowegions hunt and think. I have two brothers that still live and hunt deer in Iowa. They switched to the 350 legend as soon as it came out.
Mark

Thanks, it seemed to be an accurate depiction to me LOL. With that crowd I always seem to be in the spot light as I have always marched to a different beat. When I decided to try my hand at deer hunting I modified a Westernfield 12ga (was a model 12 clone IIRC) that had a 2-3/4 chamber and a 30in barrel. Trimmed it down to 28in to remove the full choke and drilled and tapped the receiver for a 1pc weaver base, mounted a 3x9x40 and shooting plain old Winchester Rifled Slugs I made a 2in group at 150yds. After harvesting deer out to 175yds many of my hunting buddies labeled me the deer sniper. I later modified a Charles Daly semi-auto 12ga in a similar fashion, had a Marlin M55 bolt 12ga in a similar setup, a 60s era Mossberg 20ga bolt gun that I scoped and trimmed down to 18" and made a muzzle brake for it. Then came the special rifle season for a few years and finally got to take my Savage 12FV in 308 to the field for some antlerless management hunts. The buddies were feeling proud with their centerfires and making 200yd shots 'til I got my chances and was harvesting out to almost 500yds. Even now they all have their 350 Legends and I am showing up with my CVA 444 Marlin and my Savage 110 in 375 H&H. Do I build these to show off? No not really, I just enjoy being a bit different and it works for me but they will spend a couple hours every season comparing and doing some metaphorical d!@k measuring but I am usually excluded from such comparisons LOL.


As for the .360 Buckhammer, looks like Federal's answer to the .350 Legend. Big downside is that it's based on the .30-30's rimmed case which means it's not going to be compatible with most of today's most popular rifle platforms.

Agreed Jim, however it is likely a marketing downside I for one however am glad to see the old lever guns are not left out in the modern straightwall race. Will it flop? Most Likely, but maybe it will bring another viable option for a resurging lever market.


Personally I'd still like to see an updated version of the .375 Winchester cartridge - maybe based off a 7mm Rem Mag case to retain the straight wall? Plenty of good .375cal bullets out there already with higher B.C.'s, and you could even come up with some good subsonic loads with the VLD-style bullets for hunting suppressed.

I was thinking about something similar on my way home this evening. Maybe like a 350 Rem Mag necked up for a 375 bullet. Should be a nice little thumper.

[J.Baker]

Agreed Jim, however it is likely a marketing downside I for one however am glad to see the old lever guns are not left out in the modern straightwall race. Will it flop? Most Likely, but maybe it will bring another viable option for a resurging lever market.


I was thinking about something similar on my way home this evening. Maybe like a 350 Rem Mag necked up for a 375 bullet. Should be a nice little thumper.

I'm a big lever gun fan, but this new cartridge just isn't tripping my trigger. I'm getting about 2300fps out of my .375 Win with a 200gr Sierra bullet and it will put three shots in just over an inch at 100 yards when I do my part. If/when the lighter and faster 150gr load comes out for the .360 Buckhammer it might be more appealing, but it's still a low BC round nosed bullet.

If I can ever manage to catch them in stock I'd really like to try the 250gr Sierra Gameking and maybe the relatively new 250gr Hornady CX bullets. These are sleeker pointed boattail bullets so I'm not sure if they would stabilize in my 94 Big-Bore's 1-12" twist barrel at .375 Win velocities (1900-2000fps). I'd also have to test to see how expand at these lower velocities since both are primarily designed to be used at faster .375 H&H velocities. Another option would be the 255gr Barnes Original designed for the .38-55, but it's a blunt-nosed bullet so not really going to help me extend the usable range of this cartridge.

And before anyone says anything, yes - I know not to stack pointy nosed bullets in a tubular magazine. However, if I'm only loading one in the pipe and one in the magazine that concern is a non-issue.

Staying within the straight walled case parameter without having too much or too little body taper is the difficult part when it comes to dreaming up a new cartridge. Starting with a 7mm Rem Mag you have a base body diameter of 0.550" (at least on paper). Given the bullet diameter would be .375" and figuring on about a 0.009" neck wall thickness, the case mouth outer diameter would come out to roughly 0.393" resulting in the case body tapering by roughly 0.157" on the diameter, or 0.0785" on the radius. That's not much body taper and could make extracting a fired case a little more difficult necessitating more mechanical advantage from the primary extraction and/or a more robust extractor arrangement.

[bootsmcguire]

Jim, all valid points. This 360 may not be the new cat's azz of cartridges but I guess I like the thought behind it. For myself I hadn't really considered a 375 Win just because I was under the impression (unfounded as it could be) that nobody chambered for the 375 Win anymore, and certainly not in a rifle of a price-point that I am willing to throw it on my gun rack of an ATV and carry it through the brush anyways LOL. However staying with the 375 bore would not hurt my feelings, and a lighter duty 375 cartridge (lighter duty than my 375 H&H anyways) would be handy as some of the terrain that I hunt gets the deer up within 75yds which if using my H&H would likely do a fair bit of meat damage. Also at those ranges of 0-125yds the round or flat nose bullets don't bother me just because I would imagine that the gains from a "pointy" bullet would be minimal in that scenario.

Yeah .157" of diameter difference seems like a mile when figuring that like 444 Marlin case only tapers about .020" when comparing base dia. to mouth dia.

And I should clarify that my previously mentioned thought of a 350 Rem Mag Necked up to 375 would still have a bottleneck since here in Iowa ATM that bottleneck would be legal for use. Maybe a 375 WSM would be a better fit perhaps....... I dunno just thoughts running through my head lol.

And maybe I am just too tired this evening where I shouldn't even be thinking up such ideas LOL

[J.Baker]

I don't think anyone chambers for the 375 Win anymore. My 94 Big-Bore dates to the early 1980's and predates the angled eject so I can't even put an optic on it. Not that I likely would as I've never cared for the look of an optic on a Winchester or Marlin lever gun. I'd probably opt for a .38-55 if building something on a modern break-action single shot as there's some pretty stout +P load data out there for it now. Basically the same cartridge, but the .375 Win is just a hair shorter to ensure it couldn't be chambered in an older 38-55 rifle due to it's higher pressure. IIRC originally the 38-55 was rated at 32K PSI with black powder and I think the +P loads are around 38k PSI while the 375 Win is 52K PSI.

[bootsmcguire]

Quite a notable difference in pressure there, I may just have to keep an eye out for one. Never know, somebody may have inherited one and be will to part ways for a reasonable price.

[Gman628]

On the subject of state regs, the southern 1/3 of MI. use to be a shot gun only state for deer season except you could use a pistol w/ straight wall cartridge (tapered case is fine) in that same area, then when they recently adopted the straight wall regs to include rifles it got really screwed up. Back in 2007 I bought an Encore pistol to use instead of the 12 ga. The regs. state that it needs to be straight wall (taper is fine) and .35 cal. or larger, so I've been using a .444 Marlin in a 15" barrel since then. Fast forward to the inclusion of rifles in the same area and for rifles they need to be the 1.8" case or smaller. So, you are good to shoot a rifle cartridge as long as it's straight walled and fired from a pistol, but you have to use a pistol cartridge (1.8" or shorter case) from a rifle. Love these politicians.:ambivalence:

[BT]

On the subject of state regs, the southern 1/3 of MI. use to be a shot gun only state for deer season except you could use a pistol w/ straight wall cartridge (tapered case is fine) in that same area, then when they recently adopted the straight wall regs to include rifles it got really screwed up. Back in 2007 I bought an Encore pistol to use instead of the 12 ga. The regs. state that it needs to be straight wall (taper is fine) and .35 cal. or larger, so I've been using a .444 Marlin in a 15" barrel since then. Fast forward to the inclusion of rifles in the same area and for rifles they need to be the 1.8" case or smaller. So, you are good to shoot a rifle cartridge as long as it's straight walled and fired from a pistol, but you have to use a pistol cartridge (1.8" or shorter case) from a rifle. Love these politicians.:ambivalence:
Wow! How frustrating and senseless.

[bootsmcguire]

On the subject of state regs, the southern 1/3 of MI. use to be a shot gun only state for deer season except you could use a pistol w/ straight wall cartridge (tapered case is fine) in that same area, then when they recently adopted the straight wall regs to include rifles it got really screwed up. Back in 2007 I bought an Encore pistol to use instead of the 12 ga. The regs. state that it needs to be straight wall (taper is fine) and .35 cal. or larger, so I've been using a .444 Marlin in a 15" barrel since then. Fast forward to the inclusion of rifles in the same area and for rifles they need to be the 1.8" case or smaller. So, you are good to shoot a rifle cartridge as long as it's straight walled and fired from a pistol, but you have to use a pistol cartridge (1.8" or shorter case) from a rifle. Love these politicians.:ambivalence:

It was the same here for the first couple of years, and then they just opened it up. Decades before that we could use pistols from a specific list of cartridges ranging from the 357 mag up to 444 and 45-70. Never understood that one, use a TC or a Striker and could get rifle level performance. Oh well they basically fixed it now. Hope y'all up there get it more straightened out in time.

[Stumpkiller]

I was actually astonished when my local management unit in upstate NY opened the legal implements to "any centerfire rifle". We had been shotgun slug only for living memory. This was a great win for hunters . . . though with the Hornady SST slugs and Hastings rifled barrel w/4X scope I had been using in my 11-87 it didn't open much additional practical usage is was well covered to 150 yards with 2" five-shot groups. Still, I am more comfortable with an accurate (and lighter) Savage rifle and proven bullets and added accuracy out to 400 yards. Though I have yet to exceed 160 yards on whitetail.

[D. Sanders]

Does anybody know for sure if the Buckhammer is going to be safe for original Contender frames? I assume it is since they list the operating pressure as 50 K PSI. The 375 Win. is listed at 55 K PSI. Sure would hate to get one and stretch a frame.

[Iowa Fox]

The 375 Win is borderline in the Contender. I have never fired a factory round in mine and load them conservatively, all 4 of them are factory TC barrels. If I were going to order a barrel I would go with the Encore. If TC was still in business we could for sure expect to see barrels in the standard factory line up for both pistol and rifle by the fall hunting season. Thanks a lot Greg Ritz and S&W for intentionally destroying a great company.

[D. Sanders]

The 375 Win is borderline in the Contender. I have never fired a factory round in mine and load them conservatively, all 4 of them are factory TC barrels. If I were going to order a barrel I would go with the Encore. If TC was still in business we could for sure expect to see barrels in the standard factory line up for both pistol and rifle by the fall hunting season. Thanks a lot Greg Ritz and S&W for intentionally destroying a great company.

I was thinking that it would be best to keep loads no hotter than middle of the road. Definitely wouldn't want to hotrod it in an orig. frame.

[D. Sanders]

BTW, I was looking at the 355 GNR and they look very similar ballistically. Anybody here have any experience with one.

[P Flados]

In an original Contender, I would go with the 357 Max for a 14" or longer and a 360 Dan Wesson for 10".

In a G2 or Encore carbine/rifle, the 360 BH is probably a better choice for most uses.