#12 vlp 308 ??

[Alabama F Class]

Long time F Class shooter here. Been using an old #10 action, Schilen barrel 28" 1/7 .223.
Rifle Basix trigger at 13oz and Chaote stock. Been shooting this rig quite successfully for about
7 years with 80gr Bergers & Varget.

I now have a want for a 308 for FTR. Don't have the $$$ to build right now, so I'm considering a #12 VLP in 308.
With good glass & handloads, how competitive would this rifle be bone stock at 600yds?

Thanks for your opinions.

[Dave Hoback]

Welcome… and Merry Christmas Eve!

So, that’s a $1000+ rifle. You can likely build another Model 10 for around that or less in 308. So you’re not really saving money. But, to the point, the Model 12VLP can be extremely competitive as it sits. Good scope & mounting & reloading can render some incredible accuracy. Likely go through the same motions as any other stock rifle to really achieve the best consistency. Bed the stock. Probably need to work the trigger or replace it altogether. Those issues remedied, they are shooters!

Still… you can build for the same roughly. Especially if you just rebarrel & Bolt Head your current Model 10. I mean, if you are done with 223 & moving on. If you’re still wanting the the 223, I get the point of another rifle. I wouldn’t know as I leave 223 work to my AR15 builds. I’ve never owned or plan to a 223 bolt gun.

[Robinhood]

I have had a couple over the years and i regret selling both of them. I mimic what Dave said. I will only add that you could build something and use the same stock you are using for Fclass. You could even use a bipod on that rifle and compete in FTR. Good luck

[Alabama F Class]

I don't wish to give up my .223 I want another complete rifle. I'm confused as to how you think I can build for $1k? An action is about $600, barrel $400, + stock is over $1k. If I found a used rifle to get an action, I might save a few bucks but would know the history of it.
Definitely staying in FTR.

[Alabama F Class]

Wanting to keep my 223 as is.
The 308 will be a separate rifle for FTR.
Building would be more expensive as an action is $600+, a barrel is $400ish, + stock.
I could finally a used #10 and just the action off of it, but would not know the history of it. The #12 is a better action anyway.

[Fuj']

I would pass on a 12-VLP. It's really no better then a 110. Stiffness is the problem. The VLP
is an open top receiver with the bottom cut out for a magazine. You would want the Savage
"Precision target action" 3 screw. I compete and shoot with 3 of them. They are solid tanks.
A PTA and decent barrel is going to be closer to $1200 in todays market, so here is what I
would do first......Look for a used Savage .308 FTR rifle. Street price new is around $1450.
For that matter any Savage 12 single target rifle. Ready to shoot out of the box. You can get
a barrel down the road since your first major concern is optics.

[wbm]

+1

[charlie b]

What Fuj said. He forgot to mention the VLP would have the Varmint accutrigger instead of the Target version on the FTR, if that makes a difference to you. I have a 12BVSS and, while decent enough, if I were going to compete I'd want a target action and trigger.

[Alabama F Class]

What Fuj said. He forgot to mention the VLP would have the Varmint accutrigger instead of the Target version on the FTR, if that makes a difference to you. I have a 12BVSS and, while decent enough, if I were going to compete I'd want a target action and trigger.

Found a new 12FTR for 1300. BOUGHT IT!
I was not aware of the apparently huge difference in the actions. So thank you gents. Now to work up a load for a 1/12 30" barrel. 1/12 seems a bit slow to me, but I'll try 150, 168, and 175 bullets. Again THANK YOU!

[Fuj']

Found a new 12FTR for 1300. BOUGHT IT!
I was not aware of the apparently huge difference in the actions. So thank you gents. Now to work up a load for a 1/12 30" barrel. 1/12 seems a bit slow to me, but I'll try 150, 168, and 175 bullets. Again THANK YOU!

Hell of a good price !! Beats street !! As for that 12 twister, your good to go on 168's and lower.
It may shoot the 175's but if were me and an overlooked bullet. and fairly priced is the 155gr
Barnes Match Burners. Palma boys shooting out to a thousand have things figured out. Sometimes
them long sleek high BC bullets don't hold all the answers. The newer 169 Sierra will be another
to play with. I'd do the 155's and keep the speed up.

[charlie b]

Congratulations. That's a nice deal.

I also liked the long 155's in my .308, but, part of that is less recoil.

[jkv45]

Found a new 12FTR for 1300. BOUGHT IT!
I was not aware of the apparently huge difference in the actions. So thank you gents. Now to work up a load for a 1/12 30" barrel. 1/12 seems a bit slow to me, but I'll try 150, 168, and 175 bullets. Again THANK YOU!
Maybe someone can explain to me why they would go with a 1:12 twist on a long barrel, long range, .308?

I thought most of the FTR guys liked extra heavy bullets, and those like a faster twist - is that correct?

Thanks.

EDIT: Found an interesting article on the FTR right here - https://www.savageshooters.com/content.php?36-Savage-Model-12FT-R-F-Class-Review-in-308-Winchester

[Alabama F Class]

Maybe someone can explain to me why they would go with a 1:12 twist on a long barrel, long range, .308?

I thought most of the FTR guys liked extra heavy bullets, and those like a faster twist - is that correct?

Thanks.

[/URL]

That has me puzzled too. But I did extensive research before buying. Seems it will shoot up to 175's well but really shines with the 155's. That makes sense to me.
Many said the 155 will go 1000yds easy at 2950fps or above. Varget seems to be the dominant choice for powder. I'll have to play with bullet types....secant vs tangent.

[charlie b]

My conjecture is the 1/12 is kinda 'leftover' from the Palma rifles. That class required 155gn bullets so the 30" barrel was used to get as much velocity as possible. The 12 twist instead of 10 is considered more optimal for the lighter bullets.

Since Savage already made the long .308 12 twist barrel for the Palma then they could easily just slip one into the FTR rifle and kill two birds with one stone.

I do know a couple folks with the 30 or 32 inch barrels and 12 twist that do well with 175SMK's. The extra barrel length means just a bit more velocity so the bullets are stable.

[Robinhood]

The 12T FTR rifle will shoot the Berger 185 hybrid or Jugs just fine. I have been beat using something other than VV N140/N150 or N540/N550 powder. consider that if you go heavy

[Dave Hoback]

Exactly. Barrel twist is not tied directly to bullet weight. Actually, not weight at all, but rather, bullet length. Of course, traditionally speaking, the heavier the bullet, the longer it is. But it’s actually an equation of bullet Speed & Length. And as Charlie pointed out, the longer barrel will always deliver higher velocity; so the 1:12 twist is “better” for the combination of the light-heavy bullets.

[charlie b]

It is mainly bullet length. When you get to the marginal cases other factors can enter, such as how far back the center of gravity is vs the center of pressure. IMHO, this is where the VLD bullets are engineered to work better with higher twist rates. For example, the 155gn Berger bullet I use is the same length as the 175SMK's.

Just an FYI. The stability equations most people see use a football shape for the bullet and are optimized for velocities in the 2700fps range. The velocity entered into these equations is only used to calculate the spin rate of the bullet.

[Fuj']

Exactly. Barrel twist is not tied directly to bullet weight. Actually, not weight at all, but rather, bullet length. .


Not in all cases. You can subtract the length of a plastic or aluminum bullet tip.
Tipped bullets actually need less twist then a conventional jacketed bullet. Less
mass up front to keep the bullet from swapping ends as the speed drops. Won't
keyhole as soon. Hornady A-Tips were designed with this in mind.

[Dave Hoback]

Not in all cases. You can subtract the length of a plastic or aluminum bullet tip.
Tipped bullets actually need less twist then a conventional jacketed bullet. Less
mass up front to keep the bullet from swapping ends as the speed drops. Won't
keyhole as soon. Hornady A-Tips were designed with this in mind.

Yes, of course. However, projectiles with “Ballistic Tips” as they are referred to, are already typically very long, high BC bullets. And the plastic tips don’t really account for much extra length. The newer Hornady A-Tips are the only ones I know off hand where the tip accounts for a good portion of the length. But yes, it’s length in the body of the bullet.

Here is a perfect example. The M-16 started with 1:12 twist using the m193 55gr bullets. When the m855, 62gr bullets (Green Tips)came, outa faster barrel twist was needed. Now 1:9 stabilizes the m855, 62gr rounds just fine. But the 1:9 would not stabilize the m856 tracer rounds, which is why the 1:7 twist was adopted. While being almost equal in weight to the Green Tips at 64gr, the m856 Tracer round was much longer. Below shows this.

https://i.ibb.co/hBzL1rs/9-EDE48-A2-8-E68-425-A-AA9-D-D3-F1-CA7-B616-C.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[jonbearman]

If you really look for a used rifle at a pawn shop or somebody here for way less than 600 for a reciever. You can get a decent used .308 barrel on here or elswhere. I look for newer used rifles with the modern trigger and I put them together in a stock of my choice or get one from boyds,put pillars in it and bed it.