Need help with Choate stock upgrade....

[Robinhood]

I’m willing to bet THAT was your accuracy issue right there. No Doubt.

[Robinhood]

You can see in the picture above how the rail sits flush against the action. There is now another gap starting. Some rail manufacturers make the contact points inside of the outside edge, not a true 3.500" radius. I have seen that before. Barring it having the wrong screw profile, stripped threads or a bent action, consider bedding it with J&B Weld and moving forward.

[blykins]

This is one that just doesn't make sense to me.

I had the rifle stripped down this morning when I saw the initial gap problem. I took the rings off, pulled the rail off, checked for any issues, then laid the rail back on the action. It sits perfectly flush and straight. The bolts went back in and held torque. I thought I had fixed it.

It didn't take 10 rounds for me to start seeing daylight in between the rail and the action at the range this afternoon and by the time I was done, this is what I was seeing again (I stuck my fingers in the way so my phone would focus):

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52569720010_b0c2d81a73_z.jpg

So why is it happening? If the rail sits flush and the screws hold torque, how is it popping up? No doubt that this is what is causing the grouping issues, if the hindend of the scope is moving around, I'm just chasing myself around the target.

I'm reluctant to put JB Weld on it, just from the standpoint that if I ever had to remove the rail, there'd be no good way of getting it off cleanly and easily.

I can't say that the rail is warped or bowed, because it sat down flush and fit the receiver very nicely this morning. I'm just perplexed right now.

That MDT chassis is straight up awesome though LOL

[Robinhood]

"I'm reluctant to put JB Weld on it, just from the standpoint that if I ever had to remove the rail, there ould be no good way of getting it off cleanly and easily. " Release agent makes it come off easily. It is your rifle though and I am not going to push anything on you............................................... .................................................. .................................................. ......................... There is only one answer to your issue. The threads are either stripped on the screws or hole, or they are the wrong thread size, IE... #6 crew where a #8 screw should be used. At the same time there is a situation that is making the rail lift. Weather it is the way the rings are mounted, a bent rail, a bent action or a restriction keeping one of those components from seating properly. Anything purchased used for a savage comes with risk. There are a lot of fledgling "Savagesmiths" out there doing things they have no business doing. Due to savages being easily customizable by an experience or knowledgeable person, the inexperienced and ignorant often try and do things they shouldn't be. So inspect everything for fit s you go together.

[blykins]

This is one that just doesn't make sense to me.

I had the rifle stripped down this morning when I saw the initial gap problem. I took the rings off, pulled the rail off, checked for any issues, then laid the rail back on the action. It sits perfectly flush and straight. The bolts went back in and held torque. I thought I had fixed it.

It didn't take 10 rounds for me to start seeing daylight in between the rail and the action at the range this afternoon and by the time I was done, this is what I was seeing again (I stuck my fingers in the way so my phone would focus):

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52569720010_b0c2d81a73_z.jpg

So why is it happening? If the rail sits flush and the screws hold torque, how is it popping up? No doubt that this is what is causing the grouping issues, if the hindend of the scope is moving around, I'm just chasing myself around the target.

I'm reluctant to put JB Weld on it, just from the standpoint that if I ever had to remove the rail, there'd be no good way of getting it off cleanly and easily.

I can't say that the rail is warped or bowed, because it sat down flush and fit the receiver very nicely this morning. I'm just perplexed right now.

That MDT chassis is straight up awesome though LOL

Thanks for the dialogue.

This particular rifle came with the rail mounted to the rifle from Savage. I added the rings and scope (and of course the stock).

I didn't know that there was a release agent for JB Weld. Interesting.

[Robinhood]

There are many rifles and scope bases with JB Weld as the bedding material out there. KIWI shoe polish and min-wax used as release agents. Never an issue. I have used it with other bedding materials as well and works for those products too. On steel, a dremel or pencil grinder with a fine wire wheel will remove any stubborn epoxy left over. There is a clean up process that goes as the pieces are going together. Alcohol and Q-tips are your friend.

[blykins]

There are many rifles and scope bases with JB Weld as the bedding material out there. KIWI shoe polish and min-wax used as release agents. Never an issue. I have used it with other bedding materials as well and works for those products too. On steel, a dremel or pencil grinder with a fine wire wheel will remove any stubborn epoxy left over. There is a clean up process that goes as the pieces are going together. Alcohol and Q-tips are your friend.

This gives me hope. I want this rifle to shoot so bad....

[Dave Hoback]

LIke Robin said, release agent. Bedding the rail is no different from bedding the Action, or anything else for that matter. You apply release agent to the Action surfaces & the compound is applied & sticks to the rail. Many, many people do this. Of course someone is going to chime in to call or send it to Fred (Sharpshooter), to check if the Action is warped because he fixes that. So I’ll save them the time. That’s always an option. Personally, I’d verify correct screws as Robin pointed out & bed the rail. Easy, cheap & works. If you were near me, I’d bed it for you for free.

Here’s a decent video from from my boy Vaughn. There’s are dozens of videos showing how to, so don’t hesitate to watch many. Also, I prefer using the Devcon “Plastic Steel” epoxy for all my bedding needs, but that is a personal thing based on my own research & experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8qsrDiraBU

[blykins]

LIke Robin said, release agent. Bedding the rail is no different from bedding the Action, or anything else for that matter. You apply release agent to the Action surfaces & the compound is applied & sticks to the rail. Many, many people do this. Of course someone is going to chime in to call or send it to Fred (Sharpshooter), to check if the Action is warped because he fixes that. So I’ll save them the time. That’s always an option. Personally, I’d verify correct screws as Robin pointed out & bed the rail. Easy, cheap & works. If you were near me, I’d bed it for you for free.

Here’s a decent video from from my boy Vaughn. There’s are dozens of videos showing how to, so don’t hesitate to watch many. Also, I prefer using the Devcon “Plastic Steel” epoxy for all my bedding needs, but that is a personal thing based on my own research & experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8qsrDiraBU

I was always of the mind that bedding is just to make a smooth/flat surface or take up gaps. Am I wrong?

I can pull everything back apart, remove the rail screws, and lay the rail down on the action. It sits down the way it should with no gaps. I can then put the screws in, torque them, and it will stay flat against the action until I put several rounds through it, then it slowly jumps up. I shot 33 rounds yesterday. It started with no gap, then ended the day with a .016" gap.

I would think that it's an issue with the fasteners. If I didn't know any better, I would say the threads are stripped in the rifle and the screws are pulling out, but then they wouldn't hold torque when I screw it all back together. That's why I'm kinda stumped. It's almost like the screws are stretching and the rail is climbing up the screws.

[Dave Hoback]

That is strange. But it’s something you can freely check. Do the screw threads look good on their own? Do they thread into the Action & torque correctly?

This is one of those cases that is odd because none of us can inspect it. We can only go by what you say, but the issue keeps evolving. You keep discovering new things. So at this point I think you need to have someone who knows inspect it. Do you know of any gunsmiths near you?

[Robinhood]

When you bed (and pillar) you are improving several things. Since the action is in the relaxed position when bedded, you make a condition that fits the action not a condition where the action is distorted to fit the stock. You will, if done correctly, free float the barrel and put it in the middle of the barrel channel. You will reinforce the recoil lug to where it has a higher level of contact so that the action is not "squirming" after each shot. That will improve precision and accuracy in the aggregate. The pillar and bedding will not compress like the factory stock material will. With pillars you pull the action snugly into the inlet against a solid bed and the metal pillar. So if you feel the screw begin to snug up and it takes another turn to get it tight you might benefit from bedding. on a properly pillar and bedded rifle, As the screw makes contact with the pillar it will tighten in less than a half turn. No spring...we call it soft foot in a different industry. Good luck and I hope you are just dealing with a wrong base / screw combination.

[blykins]

Thanks, guys.

I actually did call a local gunsmith yesterday and explained to him what was going on. First thing he said was that the Savage rails/hardware were pretty low quality and suggested a higher quality rail, such as an EGW. My 112 in .338" Lapua has an EGW base, so I may do that. Even though I can change bases, I will probably just let him do it all and give everything a once-over. I just don't have time to play gunsmith.

I do have a positive attitude now, however, that the rifle may very well shoot up to expectations when this is repaired. I can't imagine what the rear of the scope is doing.

[blykins]

Update to this...

I ordered a new EGW base. It arrived yesterday. Had some time to play today, so I decided to check things out further.

All the screws in the existing rail were tight when I removed them. Receiver is nice and flat across the top. Rail fits well.

I went to see how the thread engagement felt on the 4 screws and found this:

Here's the front two screws, sitting nice and square to the receiver:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52598213040_14be0d148d_z.jpg

And then here's the rear two screws:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52598301943_018ca17f0d_z.jpg

Pretty sure that's the problem. The screws are not making solid contact with the counterbore in the rail, which is just letting the rail ride up.

Done with it at this point. Contacted local gunsmith and asked when I could drop it off. In addition, the EGW rail came with screws that are too small.

[Dave Hoback]

Yup! That’ll do it it. Exactly what I saying in post #30. The Action was not square when drill/tapping The rear screws.

[prdatr]

So Screwed on many levels. I'd like to see what the smith comes up with as a repair.

[blykins]

So Screwed on many levels. I'd like to see what the smith comes up with as a repair.

He doesn't wanna mess with it, told me to send it back to Savage. I'm reluctant to do that because I'm skeptical of their quality as it is.

I'm gonna find another gunsmith I guess. I don't care if they put another scope base on it, drill/tap for larger screws, etc. I'm done with messing with the stupid thing.

[Dave Hoback]

He doesn't wanna mess with it, told me to send it back to Savage. I'm reluctant to do that because I'm skeptical of their quality as it is.

I'm gonna find another gunsmith I guess. I don't care if they put another scope base on it, drill/tap for larger screws, etc. I'm done with messing with the stupid thing.

Does it use 6-48 or 8-40 screws. If the smaller, it’s easy fix. Just go to the larger 8-40. But if they are already the larger; then it’s not an easy fix. Could do m5 screws if they are already larger. Only other fix is Weld & Re-Drill/Tap.

[blykins]

It uses 8-40 screws.

What about drilling and tapping it for another scope base? Doesn’t have to be a pic rail.

Im just very reluctant to send it back to Savage.

[Dave Hoback]

The problem is they are not machined at a Right angle to the Action, but rather, they are angled. Even two-part bases may exhibit similar outcome. I understand your concern. If this were mine, I would drill tap to 5mm. But I have the means & the tooling to do so correctly.

I’ll just offer this piece you’d likely heard before… Remember: “It is the Squeakiest wheel which GETS the oil!”

[blykins]

The problem is they are not machined at a Right angle to the Action, but rather, they are angled. Even two-part bases may exhibit similar outcome. I understand your concern. If this were mine, I would drill tap to 5mm. But I have the means & the tooling to do so correctly.

I’ll just offer this piece you’d likely heard before… Remember: “It is the Squeakiest wheel which GETS the oil!”

Well, gunsmith fixed that issue. Picked it up yesterday. Since it was a new rail and screws, I relapped the rings, put everything back together, then took it to the range today.

I was raised to be frugal and not waste money, but let me tell you that there isn't much keeping me from grabbing this piece of junk rifle by the barrel and wrapping it around a telephone pole.

Good news is that the rail doesn't raise up anymore. Bad news is that the groups keep getting worse and worse. Now we are at about a 3-4" group. We have a very nice 100 yard indoor rifle range 30 minutes from me. I had the range officer shoot it just to rule out that it wasn't a shooter issue. He shot it twice and the shots were 3" from each other as well.

I need to cool down and think about what I'm going to do. Trading it off is an option but I know I'll lose my hindend on it. I could also drop it back off at the gunsmith and let him go through it, but how much more money do I need to throw at this thing to make it shoot like it should shoot?

I know I'm coming across like a hot head but I'm just very frustrated.