223 cratering primers

[KMW1954]

I know this has been discussed before which is why I am reaching out for suggestions or direction.

The gun is a Model 11 receiver and bolt that was originally a 243. I changed the bolt head and baffle with parts from Gun Shack to swap it to a 223. Started working up loads and soon started to see cratering and a few pierced. Seeing this happen with loads that are way below max.

I ran a thread about this on another forum an caught a lot of flack from people certain this was an over pressure issue. To the point of being called names and being flamed. David Hoback responded with the bolt head bushing and also about the firing pin. Someone else reponded it was the CCI400 primers being too soft. So I tried some Remington 7 1/2 and it went away. Though it worked and remedied a problem I feel that is only a band-aide and not a fix.

I can say I have shot these same loads in a Model 10 223 and an Axis 223 with no signs of cratering.

What I can contemplating:
Replace the bolt head and firing pin.
Have the bolt head bushed
Swapping the barrels on two of the guns. The Model 11 has a new Model 12 Varmint that currently has less than 200 rounds, so to remove and place this barrel into my model 10 that I was already looking to replace the barrel with a Shilen

Last question, from the past as I recall this model 11 has the new style firing pin. Measured the pin extension uncocked and get .0556" and recommended in .025" and I don't know about pin radius.

[Dave Hoback]

I’ll say the same here partner. Check your firing pin protrusion (no more than .040”.. I like no more than .035”), and the pin radius. (Not pointy) Also the slop in the bolt head hole. (Which bushing will fix)

[Whynot]

This has probably all been said- but you can be over pressure well below max in the manual.... You can't always make it up to max.

As above- check that out...

And if the other gun is also a short action (and you have a gauge to make sure you are good with headspace) you could try the other bolt and see if it is a ammo/pressure issue or a bolt issue (hopefully without having to adjust barrel- but either way can show you what your have)

[celltech]

If you decide to go the bushing route with Desh I believe he will also grind the non-adjustable pin down to whatever you want. I had him do 2 of my Savage bolts and it stopped all cratering/blanking in my small primer loads...and I use CCI primers as well.

[Dave Hoback]

If you look at the picture, it represents the firing pin in the bolt head hole. The tip radius is represented by how obtuse the round face is. Imagine it was much more pointy. You see how much slop there would be on the sides? The radius should not drop into the hole at full pin protrusion.

https://i.ibb.co/gRMsvJ2/686-CCF5-D-602-F-450-F-8-F0-C-B07-D0595-E526.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

You’ve likely seen this, but again this is my bolt with the firing I machined. You can see clearly how the radius does not drop below the bolt face surface. And that is at around .035” or a bit less. That is where it should be, .035”. Not .025”.

https://i.ibb.co/vqFc1rX/5-A6-B5904-E9-FA-425-E-86-A2-76348562-F20-B.png (https://ibb.co/dMTfB3m)

[KMW1954]

Thanks guys for the responses.
Dave thanks for the clear picture and no I have not seen it before. Now looking at that picture the pin in this bolt(mine) is protruding much greater that that. Looking at my pin through a magnifying glass the radius looks pretty good. Will have to pull the bolt apart and try to get measurements.

celltech do you recall what his fee was? Turnaround time?

Was supposed to be using this rifle in a winter league come Jan.

Whynot I understand the whole pressure issue and that it can happen with less than max charges and can even happen in very light charges. As stated I fired this load before in my Model 10 and was the load I used last winter in out league.
I do have the go-no go gauges just reluctant to try and swap just the bolt in the receivers because of being "worn-in". I would rather swap barrels. But that is just me and my thinking.

[Dave Hoback]

I don’t believe it’s overpressure or soft primers… you don’t have to measure anything apart KMW. You said already measured the pin protrusion at like .556” right. So you have your baseline. Just file the pin very slowly to .035” or so. And just use your eye to set the radius. Think of it as just rounding the Face of the pin. Don’t start with a deep bevel. What I actually do is chuck the pin in a drill & spin while arc sweeping on some 400grit sand paper. Ok..we’ll I use my 2x72 belt grinder but then I have been doing it for a lot of years.

[celltech]

celltech do you recall what his fee was? Turnaround time?

It's around $65 total and he did mine in around a week. He loves to communicate and will even send pics when he is done.

https://deshind.com/boltbushing/

[KMW1954]

Dave, once again I have to agree with you. These loads have run just fine in the Model10 and the Axis with the same primers. I do know for certain that my Axis does not fire CCI#41.. So do you think just shortening the pin will cure this?

celltech, thanks for the feedback. I will have to contact him.

[Robinhood]

I would rather believe that the pin radius must not be below the face when the pin is in the fired position with a cartridge with a primer in place. That dimension could be much shorter than the firing pin protrusion dimension. I.E.... Firing pin protrusion is .040" vs firing pin protrusion with primer anvil bottomed out is .020. The firing pin Radius in Dave's picture is spot on.

[Dave Hoback]

Dave, once again I have to agree with you. These loads have run just fine in the Model10 and the Axis with the same primers. I do know for certain that my Axis does not fire CCI#41.. So do you think just shortening the pin will cure this?

celltech, thanks for the feedback. I will have to contact him.

If there is slop in the pin to bolt head hole fit, no. Just going off the info you’ve provided, I think you have a case of “a little bit” issue. It’s a little bit too much protrusion, it has a little bit too much radius and a a little bit too much pin slop. Kinda like tolerance stacking, ya know? I could be wrong of course. Won’t hurt nothing to file the pin down a bit to check. I wouldn’t go all the way just in case it needs bushed. Take it down to like .045” and give the tip a nice Radius. If the problem still exists, my money is it needs Bush’d. But if it fixes the problem, or at least gets better, my hunch is confirmed.

[KMW1954]

Good morning and thanks everyone!

I trust and agree with all of you in you assessment. Yet I an still reluctant to start grinding away on this pin. I have looked around the web and seems no one offers the Savage one piece firing pin. So no do do not feel confident doing this.

Can the New Style pin be converted to the Old Style?

[PhilC]

OEM new short action one piece firing pin, not assembly, in stock for $11.12 here (https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1349280A).

[Dave Hoback]

Phil, talking about the new style 1-piece pin, which became the norm in 2019 in all Savage 110’s.

KMW, just so you know, the old style adjustable pin can be used in your bolt. The parts below are needed.
Firing Pin assembly
https://www.gunshack.com/savage-parts/savage-short-action-firing-pin-assembly-10-11-12-14-16

Cocking Piece Pin
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1354170B

Cocking Piece Sleeve
https://www.gunshack.com/savage-parts?product_id=2897

[KMW1954]

OEM new short action one piece firing pin, not assembly, in stock for $11.12 here (https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1349280A).


If the picture they show is the actual part tat is not the correct one.

[KMW1954]

Phil, talking about the new style 1-piece pin, which became the norm in 2019 in all Savage 110’s.

KKW, just so you know, the old style adjustable pin can be used in your bolt. The parts below are needed.
Firing Pin assembly
https://www.gunshack.com/savage-parts/savage-short-action-firing-pin-assembly-10-11-12-14-16

Cocking Piece Pin
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1354170B

Cocking Piece Sleeve
https://www.gunshack.com/savage-parts?product_id=2897


Got it and thanks. Now my question isn't the cocking pin the same for both or is there a difference? I think I will be trying this first.

[Dave Hoback]

It’s different. The older style has a recess portion that acts as a keeper for the sleeve. The New style doesn’t use a sleeve. If you wanted to switch, get the correct pin. Although, this pin could be easily enough made. I could reproduce it in either Tool Steel or Titanium (yummy!) Just haven’t gotten around to it yet.

I will say though.. there’s really no need to replace. Many of the “knowhows” here actually prefer the New style pin. Robinhood for instance. He & I have talked on this a great deal, each giving his thoughts as to why the specific is favored. While I prefer the old style, it’s for my own. But I certainly trust Robin’s opinion on the matter. He has a great deal more time on the books than I do. And although I am an accomplished hobbyist machinist, Robin has done it professionally. So, I wouldn’t be so so quick to change up just because. I was simply giving you the information if something happened & you needed a new pin. (Without sending it back to Savage and paying them.)

[KMW1954]

Dave I can appreciate that greatly.

Right now I am just looking for a inexpensive quick fix to be able to shoot this in the winter league. Then eventually turning this into a 6BR which I understand is the same bolt head as the 243 that this once was. I did shoot this as a 243 and had no problem with the primers. So with that in mind I would like to preserve the original pin for that goal.

Kevin

[Robinhood]

It’s different. The older style has a recess portion that acts as a keeper for the sleeve. The New style doesn’t use a sleeve. If you wanted to switch, get the correct pin. Although, this pin could be easily enough made. I could reproduce it in either Tool Steel or Titanium (yummy!) Just haven’t gotten around to it yet. I will say though.. there’s really no need to replace. Many of the “knowhows” here actually prefer the New style pin. Robinhood for instance. He & I have talked on this a great deal, each giving his thoughts as to why the specific is favored. While I prefer the old style, it’s for my own. But I certainly trust Robin’s opinion on the matter. He has a great deal more time on the books than I do. And although I am an accomplished hobbyist machinist, Robin has done it professionally. So, I wouldn’t be so so quick to change up just because. I was simply giving you the information if something happened & you needed a new pin. (Without sending it back to Savage and paying them.) I like the old style pin also but the assembly is cumbersome and takes a lot of spring to get it moving while maintaining lock time. I didn't read everything that has been discussed here but I know the tip's profile is very critical. Ask a lot of the guys that have a Zermatt Arms action. Most get cratering and it is due to a radius that is too long, any longer from the tip and I am sure they would be poking holes in primers as well. Cratering and "blanking" is all about flow.

[KMW1954]

You guys are fantastic. I now have lots of options, just a matter of which one works best at this time.

Situation is I will be shooting a league come the first week of Jan and the gun nor the ammunition is ready because of this. So I need to make a decision. Have only about 400 Remington and 400 cci450 primers on hand and need a minimum of 200 for the league targets. Been watching and haven't seen either anywhere. have plenty CCI400.

So options I see;
Leave as-is using up the primers I have
Order new bolt head and firing pin parts
Send out the parts I have to be machined
Swap out barrels. Take this barrel and install it onto the Model 10 I shot last year which will fire the CCI400 primers. Then worry about a fix come spring.