Hodgdon no longer delivering IMR Enduron Powders???

[CFJunkie]

I just heard that the military has bought up all the IMR Enduron powder supply with extended contracts.
As a result, Hodgdon just announced they will no longer be able to deliver Enduron Powders.

Too bad, if it turns out to be true.
IMR 4166 was one of the most accurate powders for my .308 loads and for heavy bullets in my .223s.
IMR 4451 was also a favorite in my 6.5 CMs.
My results show that the Enduron powders I have tried all shoot accurately, I guess the Military agrees.

[celltech]

Ya know...a guy I met at the range yesterday said the same thing and I had not heard about it. Guess it's a good thing I use H4895 and H4350!!!

[wbm]

Fwiw

8648

[charlie b]

That's kinda sad. I liked 4166 as well for my .308 cast loads.

[darkker]

Hodgdon's "manufacturing partner" for the powders in question, is General Dynamics; at the Quebec facility.
"Enduron" is Hodgdon marketing wank, for the ingredient changeover, to be able to continue to supply extruded powder to the NATO allies.

The Quebec facility is a Canadian arsenal, run on contact. Hodgdon as a matter of course, hasn't been a large enough customer to simply pay for much significant toll milling from any of the defense conglomerates. So what they buy to blend for canister grade powder, is typically surplused powder anyway.

Cheers

[charlie b]

I don't think there are any powder mfgs left in the US. Hodgdon is more of a distributor than mfg.

[darkker]

Hodgdon does not now, nor have they ever; manufactured a single kernel of smokeless gunpowder.
They are a surplus blender and reseller only.

As far as actual manufacturers, if you don't want to get into the weeds of government arsenals, who's contacted operator changes regularly. Then there is only ONE company, General Dynamics; who owns their own private production facility.

Cheers

[CFJunkie]

You're absolutely right, darkker,

That's why I used the word delivered in the thread title.

[charlie b]

Wiki says :) the GD St Marks plant produces only ball powders, mainly for the military. Hodgdon and Winchester use their products.

IMR powders are mostly rod. IIRC they come from Aus mfgs.

[darkker]

St. Marks is General Dynamics spherical facility, that is correct. The IMR extruded powders (mostly), come from General Dynamics facility up in Quebec. The sticky wicket was the facility tear -down and total rebuild that happened a few years ago. During the downtime, Hodgdon sourced things from random producers. As an example, I bought a 1# of 4064, which was still GD, but also bought an 8# keg which Hodgy had sourced from Rhinemetal.

Since sometime in the 1990's Hodgdon switched many of the "H" branded 'extreme' powders to Thales. Thales being who most folks think of as ADI in Australia. Thales has been producing out of the Australian arsenal primarily, which had recently gone through a cleanup and rebuild process as well. Which is a part of the reason it has been difficult to find such products on the shelves.

Cheers

[darkker]

You're absolutely right, darkker,

That's why I used the word delivered in the thread title.

Yep, had it been a snake.....

[charlie b]

Thanks for the production info. Is the GD plant the only one left in the US?

[darkker]

The only one I was able to prove is privately owned, yes.

We(myself and another gent) went on the hunt for who's really manufacturing what, a few years ago; specifically looking at rifle powders. The pistol and shotgun powder world is REALLY convoluted, and I was never satisfied that I could actually prove it's being made privately... Most of what gets used in those applications(pistol, shotgun) are mortar and rocket propellants, which are essentially all made in Government owned arsenals(or by GD).


Here's a quick and dirty, of who actually manufactures the powders that everyone knows; if anyone is interested:

General Dynamics - American Defense company that makes all Canadian-made IMR rifle powders, Enduron powders, all Winchester Ball powders, most(all now?) Accurates, the Alliant shpericals (PowerPro), and some Hodgdons, and currently all Ramshot.
Northrop Grumman- American defense company that owns Orbital-ATK, MIGHT actually build flake shotgun/pistol powders.
Thales - French Defense company that owns ADI, makes all of Hodgy's "Extreme" rifle powders, plus some IMRs. At least 27% owned by the State of France, and 25.9% owned by Dassault.
Rheinmetall - German defense owner of Nitrochemie and Somchem. Makes Reloder-17. Don't know about other commercial powders.
Groupe SNPE French State-owned. Makes all Bofors (most of the Reloder line, and the Norma line) and formerly Ramshot powders via their Eurenco layer.
Nammo Makes Vihtavuori powders. Nammo is owned 50/50 by the State of Norway and Patria group. Patria is 73.2% owned by the State of Finland, 26.8% by Airbus Industries. So, Nammo is 50% Norwegian, 36.6% Finnish, and 13.4% French.

[wbm]

IMR 4895 will no longer be available from Hodgdon. Powder Valley confirmed the report.

[charlie b]

Thanks for all the mfg info. I tried the same kind of investigation a couple years ago and quickly got swamped.

I was kinda hoping Hodgdon would get rid of some of the 'duplicate' powders once they acquired the rights to all these. Also figured they would keep all of their originals and eliminate the others. Such as keeping H4895 and removing IMR4895.

[darkker]

I was kinda hoping Hodgdon would get rid of some of the 'duplicate' powders once they acquired the rights to all these. Also figured they would keep all of their originals and eliminate the others. Such as keeping H4895 and removing IMR4895.

I take the point, but remember they aren't really a singular thing; and with most folks using arsenals it causes is problems.
Hodgdon doesn't pay for very much toll milling, so most of their stock gets bought at the same surplus auctions we can buy powder at. So they'll buy various burning rates and just blend to whatever unstated range they want.
Arsenals prominently being very old and(at least in this country) superfund sites, extra capacity above government orders isn't always possible.
A few years back when GD completely torn down the Quebec facility, to rebuild into a modern plant(new formulations are where Hodgdon came up with Enduron); Hodgy had multiple sources for "the same" powder. I had 1# bottles of 4064 which came from GD, and an 8# bottle that had been sourced from Rhinemetal.

Well for the 4895's you referenced, H is Thales. As many noted before the election infection nonsense, lots of "extreme" powders were hard to find. That's because Thales and the Aussie government were in a peeing match over rebuilding the arsenal and who would pay for it. No arsenal, no powder.
So having a second source(GD) for a similar powder was a good thing.

Cheers

[Robinhood]

Thanks for the info Darkker. When you said hodgy my mind went to Hodji. Strickly useless information on my part, so for a grin factor, Johnny Quest's Hodji
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jgK-UmEI-tY/U0Cdxu93MxI/AAAAAAAABRs/5acs03XTkt0/s1600/Hadji+Singh.jpg

Disclaimer. It was another time. No insults or racial connotations intended.

[charlie b]

I was thinking more in terms like how much trouble it is to stock all the different powders and making many small batch runs of certain 'blends' rather than one big one. Hodgdon's costs will be mainly in the blending process and packaging/stocking/shipping. Reducing the number of products, especially when there is so much overlap and almost identical products, would seem to be a big savings to the company.

That doesn't even count whatever streamlining they could do on the supplier side.

[psharon97]

IMR 4895 will no longer be available from Hodgdon. Powder Valley confirmed the report.

That sucks for me. I use 4895 in 308, 444, 223, etc. Guess I'll have to develop new loads for my stuff once i run out

[wbm]

Yeah. Same here.