Are the Chambers in Savage Guns Usually Large?

[Ernest T]

I finally got my modified case so I could start testing loads for my Axis II Precision in 6.5 Creedmoor, and don't much like the results. I sent Hornady a fired, un-sized case which measured 1.531" long, case head to shoulder, using a .400" insert. I wanted to use Hornady 140 gr. ELD Match bullets, but the measurement from case head to the lands with that bullet is 2.264. Using that measurement as a starting point would make that bullet over 2.920" long, which won't fit in my magazine by a wide margin. I have 100 unfired Lapua cases I've been working my way through using 2.820 as the cartridge overall length so I can use them in the magazine. Is is it normal for Savage rifles to have such a generously sized chamber?

[celltech]

Seeing how the Axis is a long action, can you pull the binder plate out of the mag (I assume it's a MDT) which will give you 2.960"?

https://mdttac.com/308-6-5-creedmoor-mdt-metal-aics-magazine-10-rnd/

[Ernest T]

Seeing how the Axis is a long action, can you pull the binder plate out of the mag (I assume it's a MDT) which will give you 2.960"?

https://mdttac.com/308-6-5-creedmoor-mdt-metal-aics-magazine-10-rnd/

Yes, I've got several options to address the issue. I was just wondering if this was common.

[celltech]

I don't have any OEM 6.5 barrels around, but I have several aftermarket that run 2.220-2.245" BTO for that same bullet. So comparatively speaking your Savage is a bit long...

[Stumpkiller]

My M11 is actually kind of tight to spec. Very little brass upset when firing.

[Whynot]

If I understand you right then you are really not talking about the chamber being oversized but having a long throat?

I don't shoot 140 eldm bullets but you can't guarantee you have a long throat just because 1 bullet puts you over the max case length to get to the lands.... long sleek high bc bullets do that- which is why they make custom reamers. That production gun needs to also be able to chamber the round nose hunting bullets out to sammi length.

I didn't even bother measuring the distance to the lands on my last gun during load development. You could tell the bullet was not in the lands- and it needed to be mag length so it would have been pointless to measure. Being close to the lands is overrated (with a few exceptions)- and you can usually find a load or bullet that will take the jump.

[Ernest T]

If I understand you right then you are really not talking about the chamber being oversized but having a long throat?

I don't shoot 140 eldm bullets but you can't guarantee you have a long throat just because 1 bullet puts you over the max case length to get to the lands.... long sleek high bc bullets do that- which is why they make custom reamers. That production gun needs to also be able to chamber the round nose hunting bullets out to sammi length.

I didn't even bother measuring the distance to the lands on my last gun during load development. You could tell the bullet was not in the lands- and it needed to be mag length so it would have been pointless to measure. Being close to the lands is overrated (with a few exceptions)- and you can usually find a load or bullet that will take the jump.

Yes, throat would have been a better description. Using a different bullet is one of the options, probably my second choice to getting the ELDs to work.

[Whynot]

That's how I'd go about it-- you can probably get the eld to work. I've seen lots of people that use that bullet in the factory ammo and it shoots very good in a wide variety of guns... so it seems to be a forgiving bullet design.

*on the odd chance that you can't get the 140 eld to work.... The 139 Lapua Scenar is the simples bullet I've ever seen to get to shoot great and then the 140 SMK.... but both of them give up some BC to the eld.

[J.Baker]

Factory chambers typically will have a longer throat (or freebore) than SAAMI spec chambers for liability and safety reasons. Something else to keep in mind with the long, sleek, high B.C. bullets is that by design these bullets have a much longer cone section (tip to o-give) which is going to necessitate a longer overall length of the round if you insist on trying to seat out to the lands. Most find seating such bullets 20-30 thousands or more off the lands works very well and helps overcome the OAL issues you can run into them for magazine feeding.

[charlie b]

I have only had the two factory Savage barrels, .223 and .308. Both seem to have 'standard' throats. Both allow loading the std bullets (eg 69 and 168 Sierra Match Kings respectively) to seat with a small jump (.020) and still fit in the magazine. Loading some of the 'ELD' bullets, like Hornady 75ELD, in the .223 at .020 off the lands means it is too long to fit in the magazine. The Hornady 155 ELD in the .308 left very little bullet in the case when loaded to touch the lands.

The 'good' thing is the Sierra MK and Hornady ELD bullets do not seem to care much about jump to the lands. When I loaded 155gn Bergers to touch the lands in the .308 they were too long for a magazine. Those Bergers did not shoot well if loaded with even a small jump. The good thing is I do not use magazines with that rifle so it didn't matter to me.

So, my suggestion would be to go ahead and load the Hornady bullets to fit the magazine and shoot it. You might be surprised.

PS when starting with cast in my .308 I slugged the chamber and found the throat to be almost exactly per SAAMI spec.

[hamiltonkiler]

They do it for dumb arses like me that like loads hot and fast. [emoji1787]


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[Steeltrap]

I've found that (just my personal load development history) seating the bullets .020 (twenty thousands) from the lands was usually the "sweet spot" for most calibers. Some were fussy and had different lengths (I had a 7-30 Waters that got wonky if the bullets were set back farther than .010).

I'd go with the above recommendations of seating the bullets to the length your magazine will allow and try different powders and powder weights from reliable sources and see if that gets you the results you want.

If that proves difficult, you could always load them longer than your magazine allows, firing them single shot, and see if that gets you the results. If so, then the link provided above to buying an aftermarket magazine that may give you the "needed" room may be the way to go.

Just my $0.02.

Well, with inflation I guess it's now $0.03. :o

[Ernest T]

Thanks for the input. I'm starting with magazine length cartridges and working backwards away from the lands in small increments using four different powder weights. I'll let you know how that goes. I'm loading and shooting a lot and learning a little so everything's good!

[Whynot]

Thanks for the input. I'm starting with magazine length cartridges and working backwards away from the lands in small increments using four different powder weights. I'll let you know how that goes. I'm loading and shooting a lot and learning a little so everything's good!

Best way to approach it... as a fun and learning experience. If you are learning something from each round you load then the ones that shoot horrible still are not a waste.

One thing that can help out.... when you get to the OAL that you are going to use- then seat some bullets a few thousandths deeper and see how they shoot. This will give you a good idea of how the load is going to respond as the barrel wears and the bullets start jumping further. As stated earlier- I really don't care how far the bullets are jumping- but do want a wide degree of how much things can change and still be shooting good.

[Stumpkiller]

Don't panic. I have some bullets (i.e. Swift Scirocco II) that actually do better with a 0.060" to 0.065" jump. You have to play around and experiment.

[Mr.Snerdly]

If I understand you right then you are really not talking about the chamber being oversized but having a long throat?



I didn't even bother measuring the distance to the lands on my last gun during load development. You could tell the bullet was not in the lands- and it needed to be mag length so it would have been pointless to measure. Being close to the lands is overrated (with a few exceptions)- and you can usually find a load or bullet that will take the jump.


My understanding was he was talking about a long throat and yes, I believe Savage does have a long throat as a rule. My 223 Axis is much longer than my 233 783 Remington but it shoots well. I agree about being close to the lands not being such an advantage as well. In fact, some bullets work better with quite a jump. Another thing, the throat gets longer as you shoot, some calibers a lot faster than others. My 243 has eroded enough I am lucky to get 1.25-1 1/2" groups. I am going to rebarrel to a caliber that is easier on barrels.

It also seems to me Savage has a loose chamber. I hardly every have to full length resize my Savage 223 brass but the Remington needs full length resizing quite often.

[Ernest T]

I got out to the range and started with 38.7 grains of RL -16 at magazine length. I loaded four groups of five rounds each, backing off .015 each group. The gun didn't like any of those as groups were pretty spread out. I moved up to 39.5 grains and things didn't improve much. Then I moved on to 40.4 grains and things tightened up some --my first group at 2.208 was at 1 1/4". Unfortunately, I also noticed my scope was a little wobbly! All four of the screws holding the picatinny rail to the rifle had loosened. I had a screwdriver to tighten them up, but no torx driver to get the scope off to access the screws! Day finished.

After I got home, I loaded 5 more 40.4 grain cases so I can shoot all different lengths of the load at the same time. I'll get back out this week and see if the rifle likes the hotter loads. Max load is 42.1 so I have a little wiggle room left to test. This isn't real precision loading yet because these were new cases that I just full-length sized. Once I find something I like, I can use fired cases I shoulder bump .002.

[Ernest T]

I updated my reloading 6.5 Creedmoor thread in the reloading sub-forum and will update that post in the future.