Savage Trashing?

[Phil3]

I have conversed with a a fair number of people, of which a disturbing percentage soundly trash Savage actions. I know BAT, Panda, Stiller Precision, Lawton, etc, are all extremely well made and are no doubt superior to the Savage, but in general, I am being told a simple Remington 700 is still superior. Why? What is the strong opposition to Savage all about? Some have criticized the Savage floating bolt head, the "gimmicky" barrel attachment method, and having too many parts. ???

- Phil

[Eric in NC]

They speak without knowing what they are talking about and either haven't taken a good look at a Savage while thinking about what makes an action "good" or don't know anything about what makes an action good.

Floating bolt head takes care of alignment problems (no need to lap lugs etc.), barrel nut may even enhance accuracy by putting tension on the threads, one of the fastest lock times there is, etc.

I haven't heard the too many parts thing.

Now there are some things I like better about a 700 - less clunky feel, easier bolt lift (when stock), no bolt baffle flopping around, etc. But for the money AND ability to change barrels - no contest!!

[outlawkyote]

Ask them why it costs $500 to true a remington action and Fred can do a Savage for a lil over a hundred dollars.

Ask them why the lock time is faster on a Savage.

Ask them why companies are building floating bolt-heads for Remingtons?

Ask them why companies are building barel nuts for Remingtons now?

Ask them why the remingtons need three rings of steel but savage doesnt?

Ask them if they can swap barrels without custom gunsmithing?

Ask them why some of the custom barrel manufacturers are building barrels ready to fit savage actions without metel work from a gunsmith.

ask them why Savage rifles are taking the gold at most shooting compatitions these days?

Ask them if they care to take that panda action out coyote hunting with me (I'll be sure they have to drag it through some harsh elements).

Ask them why my Rem action was at a gunsmith for 6 months getting trued up but my savages were in the mail only two weeks?

I think your just talking to people who dont spend much time behind a trigger, better change the crowd you hang out with or take them to the range and show them why Savage is superior. After a few shots, tear the rifle apart and throw a new barrel on and shoot some more, that'l get their eyes opened up.

[82boy]

They talk that way because they are ignorant, they don't know. Most people that talk badly about Savage have never owned one, or even shot one, and some have never even looked at one. Most regurgitate what they heard from someone else. If anyone wants to say a 700 is better, they have not looked at the new stuff Remington is making now. Fact is Savage does have a faster lock time, The barrel nut allows the user to easily change barrels. A Savage has about the same amount of parts (if not less) as a Remington, and requires no special tools to disassemble like a Remington. Savage has a classice simple design, that works.

I would argue that a Bat, Stiller, Panda or any other action is superior to a Savage action. I have a friend that owns Bats, and has had Halls, and a SSS built Savage. According to him, the Savage shoots every bit as good as the custom actions. (Has the same accuracy) with the SSS Savage sitting beside a Bat, and lifting the bolt, it is hard to tell the difference. I value this persons opinion, and this is why: he has finished 2nd place in a registered match up in Holton MI, and has won many other match's. He plans on shooting the Savage in a registered match, and I am sure he will do well. O' by the way, this Savage will shoot, I have shot it, and have seen him shoot some small groups. I also have a SSS BR Savage, and it shoots just as good, and feels the same.

[jorvin]

i would have been on the remington side back when. but i just got done building my savage target action custom specialty pistol. and as of now i am a savage customer for ever!!!! all through the build the savage just impressed me and it shoot better than my full size remmy.

[Phil3]

I did not want to single out groups of people stating these comments, but given the responses, feel I need to. The "crowd" this info is coming from is mostly benchrest. I know for a fact some are very accomplished and experienced shooters. I get some criticism from the sniper group, but also some defenders. I have no personal ax to grind, and it rather seems to me that the Savage is not "supposed" to be good, and how dare it even try to mix company with anything other than lower end stuff. Some have argued that all high end actions are based off a Remington design, and that no Savage is winning in benchrest. Proof enough they say that Savage is second rate. I am not arguing their point, simply pointing out what I hear. I have to say, I'd damn near be afraid to show up at a benchrest match with a Savage. I think I might be laughed off the line.

- Phil

[stevec]

Nothing wrong with a Remmy....If you have the money or equipment to true it up and you will need a custom barrel to get "fantastic" groups. Or buy a savage and do a little load development and chances are you will get those "fantastic" groups.
I have listend to a lot of trashing and always seems to come down to the basher saying somthing like "well look it only cost $300!! My remmy was $600!... you get what you pay for!"
In a lot of cases that is true but not when buying a name, and I have yet to see a factory Remmy, Ruger,Sako or any other that will consistantly out shoot many of the factory Savages I have owned.

I personally would pay more for a Savage than I would a Remmy!


The "crowd" this info is coming from is mostly benchrest.

I compete in a club match 100 and 200yd benchrest and IBS every month. I have never won shooting my savage, but this is my first year doing it and every month I come in ahead of several Vipers with more experienced shooters behind them. My savage groups just as well as any other rig there. I just have a long way to go learning to read the wind flags!

Steve

[BrentWin]

I love it when the guy next to us at the range snickers as my boys pull out their Savages and start loading up the Dum Dum board. He will usually have to make some comment to then like, "You boys think that you can hit one of those suckers?"

One of the boys will just shrug and say "We usually do pretty good." The next half hour or so is a joy to watch. The guy will stand there with a smug look on his face until the candy starts flying.

I enjoy shooting guns that get no respect. Especially when it shuts up the guy that is bragging about his new Remchester Ultra and how it will put 10 shots in a 2" circle.

[jlcpls]

I enjoy shooting guns that the deer don't respect.

At least I can shoot them when they get lippy.

[MikeCTX]

And Steve is being a bit modest here as well..he shoots his Savage using a 6mm-204 (or like a 6x47), while the BR guys are using the 6PPC, he built his own front rest and others are using rest that cost between $700-$900, and last I saw his rig, he had modified a factory stock to work for BR. Compared to the $'s spent, I would say he and his Savage are doing very well. The fact that he is one heck of a shooter just adds to that.

But also consider some guys will give a guy using a Panda action a good ribbing, because he thinks that a BAT action is better. It's how some are wired, no matter how something works...they find the need to tear it down, in the end your out there having fun...don't let someone else steal your fun, just out shoot them and take their's away. From what I see, that is what Steve does.... ;)

[BrentWin]

Ryan had an arogant 11 pointer just stand and smirk as the boy was walking across an open field with his Savage 243. That was his last mistake. ;D

[Phil3]

Couple other things I heard about the Remington vs the Savage. Welcome any comments.

The Remington 700 action is round permitting all truing to be done on a lathe using one fixture. The other complaint is the trigger and that aftermarket triggers are just decent at best. A Jewell may be the trigger used as a comparative basis. ???

- Phil

[Galveston22]

Ask them why it costs $500 to true a remington action and Fred can do a Savage for a lil over a hundred dollars.

Ask them why the lock time is faster on a Savage.

Ask them why companies are building floating bolt-heads for Remingtons?

Ask them why companies are building barel nuts for Remingtons now?

Ask them why the remingtons need three rings of steel but savage doesnt?

Ask them if they can swap barrels without custom gunsmithing?

Ask them why some of the custom barrel manufacturers are building barrels ready to fit savage actions without metel work from a gunsmith.

ask them why Savage rifles are taking the gold at most shooting compatitions these days?

Ask them if they care to take that panda action out coyote hunting with me (I'll be sure they have to drag it through some harsh elements).

Ask them why my Rem action was at a gunsmith for 6 months getting trued up but my savages were in the mail only two weeks?

I think your just talking to people who dont spend much time behind a trigger, better change the crowd you hang out with or take them to the range and show them why Savage is superior. After a few shots, tear the rifle apart and throw a new barrel on and shoot some more, that'l get their eyes opened up.


Right on the money brother, great info here.

[Eric in NC]

Couple other things I heard about the Remington vs the Savage. Welcome any comments.

The Remington 700 action is round permitting all truing to be done on a lathe using one fixture. The other complaint is the trigger and that aftermarket triggers are just decent at best. A Jewell may be the trigger used as a comparative basis. ???

- Phil


What shape do they say a Savage action is???? Again - folks that haven't ever looked at one.

The SSS and light version of the Rifle Basix triggers are beyond decent. While they aren't the best I have ever tried they are certainly beyond decent. And Jewell will release their Savage trigger one day (hopefully!).

[Corprin]

"...My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit..."

I honestly wonder how well most BR shooters would do with a target firing back at them?

[pphreed1]

I have a friend that was a CZ nut and a couple years ago we both bought 204 ruger he the cz znd me the savage guess which cost less and shot better He drew a sheep permit this year and felt he needed a large lite gun so he ordered a 325 wsm kimber it shoots ok but he is having a hell of a time getting it to the sub moa accuracy I am a savage fan all the way Fred

[Eric in NC]

"...My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit..."

I honestly wonder how well most BR shooters would do with a target firing back at them?


Hmmmm - would that be affected by whether they were using Panda, Bat, or Savage actions?

[Phil3]

Ask them why the lock time is faster on a Savage.

Not trying to diminsh Savage at all, just want to understand what is behind some of the apparent conflicting info, and to learn. - Phil

This snippet from an article would seem to disagree. The entire article is here. http://longrangeshooter.com/2008/12/savage-vs-remington/

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Savage definitely has less aftermarket support but it’s getting better all the time. Lock times are slower because the sear must drag across the trigger, instead of a dropping free. There are aftermarket triggers like Sharp Shooter’s which help alleviate this problem. One can also replace the firing pin spring with a heavier one, but this will increase trigger pull weight. Older factory triggers all but non adjustable. Lightening the trigger requires removal of material from the sear and trigger itself. I don’t recommend trying this unless you’re prepared to replace the trigger or have experience modifying the factory triggers. The new accu-trigger is a better design than the original and it’s adjustable. The accu-trigger is adequate for long range accuracy but I would still recommend replacement. Cycling a Savage bolt is not as nice as the 700 in my opinion. It has a heavy bolt lift and feels cheaper when operating (Some are better than others). There are solutions to the heavy bolt lift available from Stockade. The Savage action works just fine. The bolt face is replaceable on Savage bolts. This makes changing from small, standard, and magnum, bolt faces possible (without paying a smith or ordering a new bolt). Head spacing on Savage actions is done with a “barrel nut” rather than an indexed shoulder like Remington. Having a barrel nut allows one to change a barrel themselves. Barrel makers can make chambered and threaded barrels ready to install. One needs only to have a barrel wrench, action vise, and head-space gauges (there are other ways if an action vise is not available). This allows one to save money while experimenting with different cartridges and calibers. Accuracy from the factory is very good.
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And here. http://www.switchbarrel.com/Savage%20FAQ.htm#Number3

3. What are the undesirable features of the Savage 110 family of rifles?

The following features are drawbacks of the 110 design.

· Trigger. Because of the limited mechanical advantage (the trigger bears against sear which is bearing against the main spring) the factory trigger cannot be safely adjusted below 3-5 (experts vary) pounds. After market triggers do better but the placement of the sear forward of the trigger make design of low pull weight triggers problematic. See the Savage Trigger page for more on the design and adjusting of the Savage trigger.

· Firing Pin. Some like the fact that pin protrusion is adjustable (something else to experiment with) and the fact that the pin assembly is light is thought to contribute fast lock time. In reality, lock time is poor because of the additional mass of the “sear-cocking indicator-bolt release” (which must be dragged forward) and because of firing pin friction. The friction is due to tight clearances between the firing pin and bolt body, including where the firing pin is used to retain the bolt head pin. The tight clearances promote safety by blocking escaping gases but as a result 110s are known to misfire due to debris or (at low temperatures) grease accumulating in the bolt body. See the Savage Firing Pin page for instructions on adjusting the firing pin.

· Action Stiffness. Due to length, generous cutouts for magazine, the placement of the rear action screw and the size of the trigger assembly there is limited action surface for bedding and the action itself is not considered stiff enough for serious target shooting (e.g. benchrest shooting). As a result if you want one of the single shot rifles you can expect to pay quite a premium.

· Action Length. The long action is long with a bolt throw longer that other similar actions. If you want one of the short action rifles you can also expect to pay a premium.

[Corprin]

Hmmmm - would that be affected by whether they were using Panda, Bat, or Savage actions?


I don't know, but pucker factor was pretty even across the board when I was at the two-way range with an M24, M21, M4, M500, and even the M9. To me, hitting the target is only part of it, hitting the target... on the move... with adrenaline pumping is a totally different animal.

So I doubt any of these actions would do the shooter better if he was scared crapless.


And here. http://www.switchbarrel.com/Savage%20FAQ.htm#Number]

...Action Length. The long action is long with a bolt throw longer that other similar actions. If you want one of the short action rifles you can also expect to pay a premium.

I don't know where this guy is shopping. I have been looking at used and new savage/stevens rifles everywhere I can. The common thread is a long action rifle is more than a like equipped short action. The local Gander Mtn has a "Savage 200" in 30-06 sitting next to one in .243win and another in .308win. The two short actions are listed at $299 in their tupperware stocks, while the 30-06 is marked at $349.

[lal357]

for years i swore by remingtons i had a 7600 that would shoot 7/8 at 200 all day long with my reloads. then i got to shoot my friends savage 270 and liked it picked up a model 10 in 300win mag and have been hooked ever since sold the remmy and got my son a youth model 243 that can drive tacks . i'm not sure if i just got lucky with the guns i have or if they are all great shooters but they have fallen into the never sell part of my safe . this year i picked up a tigershark in 308 and just love it (except for the high cheek weld) it was not until i started on this bored did i find out just easy one can be changed .

i also like the idea how i can take my 900.00 shark (scope and gun together)to the range a shoot next to guys that have 3grand in thiers and still be able to shoot .360-.600 with it