Savage Trashing?

[J.Baker]

And Jewell will release their Savage trigger one day (hopefully!).


I wouldn't hold my breath.

[pdog06]

These guys say that crap for one reason only... They spent TONS of cash on their rig and they dont like the fact that others can compete with them at a fraction of the cost.

I have a friend at work the same way. Everything he has is the best and anything else is junk. I've offered to take him to the range many times, but he still hasnt come with me. It's alot easier for him just to say his stuff is better without proving it.

[Eric in NC]

Anyone ever try lightening a late model factory Remington 700 trigger lighter than 3 pounds? And the article writer didn't get it right about how to improve the old style trigger (trigger return spring etc. is the way to go).

About the only points I will agree on are - firing pin can be blocked by crud (keep your gun reasonably clean!), the bolt does work roughly and is kind of cheesy feeling on a stock gun, and the action doesn't seem like it would be quite as stiff as a Remington (but I don't know of anyone that has done any testing and I don't know of anyone that has actually tested whether "stiff-ness" makes a difference from any point behind the bolt lug seats - the floating bolt head keeps that from making a difference in a Savage anyway...).

[stevec]

I have a friend at work the same way. Everything he has is the best and anything else is junk. I've offered to take him to the range many times, but he still hasnt come with me. It's alot easier for him just to say his stuff is better without proving it.
[/quote]

I work with the same guy! :D Lee reloading equip,savage rifles,wolf primers...none of them could posably be worth a crap cause the dont cost as much as his Dillon, Ruger,Match primers. I love showing him little bitty groups!

Steve

[82boy]

I did not want to single out groups of people stating these comments, but given the responses, feel I need to. The "crowd" this info is coming from is mostly benchrest. I get some criticism from the sniper group, but also some defenders. I have to say, I'd damn near be afraid to show up at a benchrest match with a Savage. I think I might be laughed off the line.
- Phil


Well lets first talk about these groups. Most benchrest shooters are copy cats, they only do something because someone else is doing it. "If Tony Boyer is doing it, I have to do it," is most people reasons. If someone wins a match with x-brand bullets then everyone shoots them bullets. I guarantee if Tony Boyer showed up with a Savage, at the next match everyone would have a Savage.

Now the sniper group, how many of these people are really snipers? Do they work for a police department, or the military, and even if they do are they trained to be snipers? These people are also copy cats, they do what they do because this department, or the military uses it, or because it just looks cool. The Philippines army made a large purchase from Savage of sniper rifles and they are used on a regular basis. There is also a department in NY that has purchased Savage rifles, and put them to use. My understanding is they are very happy with their purchases.Next time a "Sniper" trash talks a Savage ask him how many targets they have engaged.



Not trying to diminsh Savage at all, just want to understand what is behind some of the apparent conflicting info, and to learn. - Phil
This snippet from an article would seem to disagree. The entire article is here. http://longrangeshooter.com/2008/12/savage-vs-remington/

And here. http://www.switchbarrel.com/Savage%20FAQ.htm#Number3


My answer to all that is written is this: Don't believe everything you read, especially on the Internet. It is not hard to write an article and get it published. Just because it is written don't mean the person knows what they are talking about. There is so much BS in both of them articles it is not funny. There is NO PROVEN FACTS IN EITHER ARTICLES, ONLY OPINIONS. Remember you have to read between the lines, and take everything with a grain of salt.

[sharpshooter]

3. What are the undesirable features of the Savage 110 family of rifles?

The following features are drawbacks of the 110 design.

· Trigger. Because of the limited mechanical advantage (the trigger bears against sear which is bearing against the main spring) the factory trigger cannot be safely adjusted below 3-5 (experts vary) pounds. After market triggers do better but the placement of the sear forward of the trigger make design of low pull weight triggers problematic. See the Savage Trigger page for more on the design and adjusting of the Savage trigger.

>Nonsense....whoever came up with this explanation does not understand triggers at all. Because it not a "Remington " style, it must have a strike against it.


· Firing Pin. Some like the fact that pin protrusion is adjustable (something else to experiment with) and the fact that the pin assembly is light is thought to contribute fast lock time. In reality, lock time is poor because of the additional mass of the “sear-cocking indicator-bolt release” (which must be dragged forward) and because of firing pin friction. The friction is due to tight clearances between the firing pin and bolt body, including where the firing pin is used to retain the bolt head pin. The tight clearances promote safety by blocking escaping gases but as a result 110s are known to misfire due to debris or (at low temperatures) grease accumulating in the bolt body. See the Savage Firing Pin page for instructions on adjusting the firing pin.

>More nonsense.....there is no truth to the latter.

· Action Stiffness. Due to length, generous cutouts for magazine, the placement of the rear action screw and the size of the trigger assembly there is limited action surface for bedding and the action itself is not considered stiff enough for serious target shooting (e.g. benchrest shooting). As a result if you want one of the single shot rifles you can expect to pay quite a premium.

· Action Length. The long action is long with a bolt throw longer that other similar actions. If you want one of the short action rifles you can also expect to pay a premium.

>And more nonsense.....how stiff is stiff enough?

[dcloco]

In ALL fairness.....accuracy lies in the barrel, optics, and trigger.....and THEN the person behind the trigger.

....and the item that is bragged about on some occasions, but NOT included in discussions....you want a gunsmith that is ANAL. You WANT the PERFECTIONIST working on your rifle.

In truth, it does not matter what brand the action is, as long as a GOOD barrel, with GOOD optics, and a GOOD trigger is installed..then..the rest is up to the shooter, the load, and mother nature.

Why do I choose Savage....it makes NO sense to pay the kind of money people ask for AND get for Rem actions and then spend so much more to "make them right".

I would rather spend my limited funds on a GOOD barrel, a fair scope, a fair trigger, and LOTS of practice (spend the funds on reloading equipment and components).....the spending the money on making an action right....because it was not manufactured correctly in the first place.

But, there are lemons in every brand....and jewels as well. I have a Remington 721 in 30/06 (2nd year of production) that absolutely shoots better than 99.5% of any factory rifle out there.

[Phil3]

Anyone ever try lightening a late model factory Remington 700 trigger lighter than 3 pounds? And the article writer didn't get it right about how to improve the old style trigger (trigger return spring etc. is the way to go).

About the only points I will agree on are - firing pin can be blocked by crud (keep your gun reasonably clean!), the bolt does work roughly and is kind of cheesy feeling on a stock gun, and the action doesn't seem like it would be quite as stiff as a Remington (but I don't know of anyone that has done any testing and I don't know of anyone that has actually tested whether "stiff-ness" makes a difference from any point behind the bolt lug seats - the floating bolt head keeps that from making a difference in a Savage anyway...).

I am religious on cleaning, so no worry to me on the firing pin and crud. Would the action operate more smoothly and feel less "cheesy" if worked on by Fred Moreo? I am conversing with another person on Remington actions, was told there is a method used for truing (Greg Tannel), and a new bolt assembly that basically gives you a trued up Remington for much less than what it used to be. Without labor for truing, the cost with parts, the bare action, etc. is about $450. I do not know what the Gre-Tan truing would cost, but again it is supposed to be less than is normally the case. Still, this is about the same as a Savage tuned up by Fred Moreo.

Since I am not sure what I may want to use the rifle for (BR, F/TR, F-Class), I rather like the idea of switching out barrels easily. I suppose then I could be shooting 308 in F/TR and easily switch to say a 6mmBR for longer range in BR, with a barrel switch I can do at home. I would just like to hear, in factual terms, what a tuned up Savage gives up to a tuned up Remington. So far, I am not hearing much, other than everyone in BR uses something of that type, no one wins with Savage, etc. But, all of that could be explained by cultural resistance.

- Phil

[Cycler]

No matter what brand of gun you own, someone, somewhere will talk trash about it. In the various handgun forums, the SIG guys look down on Glocks. The HK guys look down on SIGs. Nearly everyone looks down on Ruger. The Ruger guys write impassioned defenses of their guns calling the others overpriced boutique stuff.

The fact remains they are all good guns and durability and reliability have a relatively low correlation with price. "You get what you pay for" isn't strictly true. At best, you get what you pay for. Often you pay a premium just for an image.

[82boy]

Would the action operate more smoothly and feel less "cheesy" if worked on by Fred Moreo?
I would just like to hear, in factual terms, what a tuned up Savage gives up to a tuned up Remington. So far, I am not hearing much, other than everyone in BR uses something of that type, no one wins with Savage, etc. But, all of that could be explained by cultural resistance.
- Phil


As mention before a SSS trued action will feel similar to a Bat action. The advantage the custom action have over a Savage is weight, a Savage action is heavy. Savage has boat loads of wins in f-class, and IBS long range BR. Look at factory class shooting events like varmint matches, egg shoots etc, Savage has a ton of wins.

Now lets talk IBS/NBRSA short range registered matches. How many wins has a factory Remington action made in the past month, now what about the last year, how about the past 5 years. The fact is no one is shooting a factory action and winning in these match's, why would they go out and try something new like a Savage? Lets look at a possible reason why, look at all the wins, it is the same small group of people winning over and over. It is a true Cinderella story to see someone come out of God know were and win one of these match's. Now the people that are winning these match's are all comfortable with what they have. Let alone these guys get free equipment, and endorsements, from the manufactures they use. So why would they give that up to prove a Savage? Remington is 1960-70's technology, back then this is what everyone used. If Savage would have had better aftermarket parts back the, then maybe we would all be shooting custom built Savage clone actions today. The only reason why the custom actions use Remington parts is due to evolution. Now lets look at a Factory Remington action, the antique ones that people still shoot are sleeved, and look nothing like a Remington. I am willing to bet that any serious BR shooter would also laugh someone with an antique Remington off the line.

[Woodser]

15 years ago I was working up some loads for my then new purely factory 112FV at a local state park rifle range. Was getting some pretty decent groups in the 1/2" range when a couple BR shooters arrived with their Rem actioned super modified BR rifles. We had a polite greeting and went about our business. I heard one snickering about the "cheap Savage" next to them, until they broke out their spotting scope and saw my groups. I then heard the same dude say to his pal "look at this, I don't believe it". We had further conversation about the 112FV, and they still didn't believe that I was shooting the groups they were seeing with the "cheap Savage".

So, with great determination, I then proceeded to shoot a 10 shot 0.310" CTC group (one of the best of my life, BTW) that left them absolutely speechless. I was finished with my shooting, so after I packed up I commented they needed to get themselves a "cheap Savage" so they could win some BR matches. ;D

[2recon]

I shoot both...savage LRPV's ( 22-250 & 6mm br ) out of the box.. shooting .2 -.3..stock guns...love em..remington 700 sps 243..shot .5 5 shot group @ 100m out of the box..ok..but not a savage...the x pro trigger would adj to about 3lbs..safely...clean..no creep..a good hunting trigger..not a varmint or br trigger...the stock was about the same quality as the savage..flexomatic,,replaced the trigger w/ a jewell w/ safety & bolt release,,the stock w/ a h-s varmint ..jb lapped the barrel..and now it shoots w/ a savage..for $ 1200..i will say one thing for remington..they are the 327 chevy's of the rifle world...tons of aftermarket stuff

[Corprin]

Now the sniper group, how many of these people are really snipers? Do they work for a police department, or the military, and even if they do are they trained to be snipers?

EXACTLY!

I have learned over they years that people who tell stories, tend to lie the most.

Like I have told many friends and family looking to buy "sniper rifles";

"I have fired more rounds than I care to admit through a tuned Remington 700, but do I own one? No, and it is very doubtful if one will ever join the collection. They are a fine rifle, but I would rather have an accurate rifle AND some money over for reloading gear. Remember the M24 is only required to be a 1.3MOA rifle at best."

[hershey]

In ALL fairness.....accuracy lies in the barrel, optics, and trigger.....and THEN the person behind the trigger.


i think my gunsmith made a wise comment, it was in regards to an old mauser action, but it applies to all actions. when the bolt locks down, if everything tightens up tight and right, it don't matter how sloppy or poor it feels when it is opened.

my douglas barreled mauser is one of my best shooters, it has a very good trigger and locks up tight.

i love showing up at the range w/ my pre-accutrigger, tupperware stock, and $99 simmons scope, but w/ a shilen barrel and outshoot the big boy toys, yes it is mostly practice, they are weekend warrior types, and i have shot there rifles well. but i know the owner of the range i shoot at has found a new respect for savages.

try pulling out a screw driver and a mallet and taking your barrel off to clean it and then go right back to shooting it 5 minutes later in front of them, that really blows there mind.

[Stetson]

Ask them why it costs $500 to true a Remington action and Fred can do a Savage for a lil over a hundred dollars.
Because the Remington does not have a free floating bolt head and the Remington lacks a barrel nut, meaning that the chamber had to be re cut and the shoulder rolled back, this is irrelevant to me seeing as i do that work myself, and the time of the work is a small price to pay to not have a barrel nut on my gun, i find them unsightly.


Ask them why the lock time is faster on a Savage.
The difference in lock time is so tiny as to be unnoticeable.


Ask them why companies are building floating bolt-heads for Remington's?
Personally i do not see the advantage, if you are paying that kind of money lap the lugs and be done with it


Ask them why companies are building barrel nuts for Remington's now?
It is one of the best ways to build a switch barrel gun.


Ask them why the Remington's need three rings of steel but savage doesn't?
The three rings of steel serve the same purpose as the ridiculously clumsy and ugly floating bolt shroud on a savage, it slows and redirects gasses in case of a catastrophic failure, Remington conceals it in a tasteful bolt face savage lets it flop around for all to see, If you want ot know what that baffle on the back of a savage should look like take a look at a Mauser 98, they got it Right first, savage participated in a bad case of very sloppy seconds.


Ask them if they can swap barrels without custom gunsmithing?
As you point out below they can.


ask them why Savage rifles are taking the gold at most shooting competitions these days?
The last 3 matches i attended were won by the same individual with a Remington 700.


Ask them if they care to take that panda action out coyote hunting with me (I'll be sure they have to drag it through some harsh elements). If you cant drag it in the mud whats the point of the gun? i agree on this point and only have one rifle that will never see mud or brush, the first one i built.


Ask them why my Rem action was at a gunsmith for 6 months getting trued up but my savages were in the mail only two weeks? Gunsmiths often get swamped at certain times of the year, at other times they can turn a gun around in a day for minor repairs, unless you sent them in together this is relevant.

Perhaps before you trash other rifles you should spend time behind the trigger of said gun?

I have shot Savages remington's, Rugers, Winchesters, kimbers and a plethora of sporterized military actions, of them all i prefer the Remington for several reasons, Remington has a factory trigger that can be adjusted to under a pound in most cases, Remington has clean pretty lines on their rifles and the bolt doesn't look like something from Pedro's garage, and i have never had any problems with my Remington's or Ruger's, i wont suffer to own a Winchester the only Savage i ever owned was a .270 win, it shoots great but it also required a new extractor after 2 years, a new ejector spring after 2.5 years and a new barrel lug because the old one was bent.

Any advantage that the savage may have had has been taken away by market forces, you can get any of the features of a savage on a 700 now, and the 700 offers several things the savage does not.



I apolagize for the vitriol in my post but the blindness in this thread to any wrong with the savage irks me.

[HRstretch]

Wow, Stetson welcome to the forum. With a first post like that, I wonder why you even visited a site like this? Anywho, maybe you will feel better now that you got that off your chest?

[Stetson]

Wow, Stetson welcome to the forum. With a first post like that, I wonder why you even visited a site like this? Anywho, maybe you will feel better now that you got that off your chest?

I have nothing against savage they make a solid affordable gun with great accuracy out of the box, but when i see whats going on in this thread it reminds me why I hate Winchester so much, growing up and starting out in this business i heard "oh but its a Winchester its better!" or "its the rifleman's rifle" with no knowledge of WHY its a good gun or what other guns offer by comparison. I actually came to these forums trying to find info on a savage 105 (i think its miss identified) that friend wants to sell me (haven't seen it yet) in the course of browsing the forums for information i stumbled upon this thread and after reading the first page felt the need to vent.

[outlawkyote]

LMAO!!!! Ive spent most of my life behind the trigger of a Remington. I still own several of them but buck for buck, no nonsence, easy to work on, "MORE ACCURACY" Easier to tune, better access to after market parts ...... I purchase only Savages now.

If you dont mind a postal queen action thats being flown all over the world getting worked on, by all means buy remingtons. The last Remington I had in the mail went to Bruce Baer. He trued it up, put a top quality barrel on it, lost my timney trigger and replaced it with a remington trigger and sent it back.... It shot alright but the savages Ive built woulda outshot it hands down. Im defenatly not a better smith than Bruce so answer that.

Ive had some good shooting remingtons (fancy cromium plated fully illuminated accessory remingtons) but they never shot like the savages I shoot.

[outlawkyote]

5 years ago I woulda prolly agree'd with you but Ive gotten smarter since then

[Stetson]

LMAO!!!! Ive spent most of my life behind the trigger of a Remington. I still own several of them but buck for buck, no nonsence, easy to work on, "MORE ACCURACY" Easier to tune, better access to after market parts ...... I purchase only Savages now.

If you dont mind a postal queen action thats being flown all over the world getting worked on, by all means buy remingtons. The last Remington I had in the mail went to Bruce Baer. He trued it up, put a top quality barrel on it, lost my timney trigger and replaced it with a Remington trigger and sent it back.... It shot alright but the savages Ive built woulda outshot it hands down. I'm definitely not a better smith than Bruce so answer that.

Ive had some good shooting remington's (fancy cromium plated fully illuminated accessory remingtons) but they never shot like the savages I shoot.

Time and time again i have seen Remington's stack rounds on top of each other (almost always after work was done and never by my own hand but it can be done, as for easier to work on what part?if you love the barrel nut system you can buy nutted barrels for a 700, the Remington factory triggers are awesome, i had mine breaking at 14 ounces for kicks and giggles for a while, As for aftermarket parts, what part cant you get? new trigger, check, new barrel, check, firing pin, check, bolt assembly, check, stocks, check, what am I missing here? as for why your current riffles out preforms the Remington you had custom made, conditions, ammunition, experience, confidence, take your pick.

I was actually losing faith in Remington of late, they introduces that detachable magazine bolt gun that just loved to bind and i feared they had gone the way of winchester, then i bought a 700 synthetic at a walmart for the sake of the action alone ($265) I was going to re barrel it true the action lap the lugs and drop it in a new stock, then i sighted it in , dime groups from the factory, now i know that's not typical, but remingtons will shoot just as good as you can shoot at least in my experience.

Buck for buck you may be right, but that's not what i saw in this thread i saw "SAVAGE is best kneel and worship if you disagree you don't know what you are talking about", and that's a very bad mindset to have because when you think that you block of your mind from thinking about other options.

Anyway I'm going to bow out now it is quite obvious you guys have your minds made up and don't think Remington rugger or Winchester deserve a seat at the table.