Powder and accuracy

[Mr.Snerdly]

Is it possible for powder to make a HUGE difference? I am talking doubling of group size. I may have some other problem, first thinking perhaps something went wrong with the scope but I put on a scope I know is good and the same thing. Unfortunately, I have none of my preferred powder to compare, owing to the fact that you are lucky to get any powder that will work with all of the shortages.

[Robinhood]

There is no way to get the most out of a rifle without working up a load using one of the handful of methods.

Do a load workup. Then, work on your seating depth. Some powders will obviously be better, but you can improve on any random load. Your rifle may share an accuracy load with another rifle, but it has to be developed for your rifle.

[charlie b]

Depends on the group size, but, normally no. If you are shooting 0.25" groups a change could produce 0.5" groups. But, 1" to 2"? Probably not. The closer the burn rate the better.

Like RH said, you do have to work up the load again. The good thing is, if you are using the same bullet, the velocity will be close so you don't have to shoot a broad range of loads.

[Stumpkiller]

I'd say "yes". Just using a single powder you can find some loads that shoot to a good group that is half the size of a poor one. Like - starting at 1-1/2" groups but finding the load that produces 3/4" groups. Is that a "Huge" difference? It is to me. ;-

So, if you have a good load and switch to a different powder there is a good chance it will produce worse groups. Until you find the right load for that new powder in your rifle. My Savage did not like IMR4166 at all and much prefers the slower H4831SC and Reloader 19. Your results may vary.

[Mr.Snerdly]

I'd say "yes". Just using a single powder you can find some loads that shoot to a good group that is half the size of a poor one. Like - starting at 1-1/2" groups but finding the load that produces 3/4" groups. Is that a "Huge" difference? It is to me. ;-

So, if you have a good load and switch to a different powder there is a good chance it will produce worse groups. Until you find the right load for that new powder in your rifle. My Savage did not like IMR4166 at all and much prefers the slower H4831SC and Reloader 19. Your results may vary.

That's almost exactly the group sizes I was getting. I never did get these bullets to shoot as good in this rifle as what I wanted but it would do about 3/4" and it has doubled. There may be something I am missing causing it besides powder but maybe it is powder. I wish I could get the powder that has worked in the past.

[pdshooter2]

That's almost exactly the group sizes I was getting. I never did get these bullets to shoot as good in this rifle as what I wanted but it would do about 3/4" and it has doubled. There may be something I am missing causing it besides powder but maybe it is powder. I wish I could get the powder that has worked in the past.

maybe if you gave us SPECIFICS we could help...all else is just smoke in the wind

[Mr.Snerdly]

Savage Axis 223, Hornady 53 grain flat base HP, Hornady #2250, 25 grains H335, 2.24" OAL.

[Robinhood]

Savage Axis 223, Hornady 53 grain flat base HP, Hornady #2250, 25 grains H335, 2.24" OAL.
That recipe with a Hornady 55gr fmj is pudding. What primer? Cases?

[CFJunkie]

It could be the bullet, but I doubt it.
I also don't think it is the powder.

First, most .223 rifles are pretty light and almost anything can cause them to move off aim point.
Also, it is not unheard of that a scope could have been jarred and damaged the reticle mounts or the scope rings or mounts loosened up.
I had a very accurate rifle suddenly shoot like a shotgun when the scope mount screws loosened up. The rings were tight but the mounts under them loosened up somehow.

If those aren't the problem, you might look at other causes.
If you calculate the median and standard deviation of all the groups you have shot with that bullet and powder combination, and the SD is larger than 0.1, it is possible that 'shooter induced variation' is a potential contributor to the group size results more than powder or bullet performance.

I admit that I have not shot the Hornady 53 grain FB HP #2250 bullets.
But I have data with .223 bolt action rifles (1:9 twist barrels) for both N133 and H335 powder with 53 grain Sierra #1400 FB 53 grain SMKs (142 groups and 47 groups, respectively, so the sample sizes are statistically significant).
The average group size with N133 was 3.6% smaller than with H335 and the average group sizes for both powders were under 0.4 inches.
That isn't enough difference for H335 powder to be the cause of the results you are experiencing.

All of those groups were shot quite a while ago, before I really improved my set up consistency and the average group size Standard Deviation for that large sample was greater than 0.075 inches.
It is probable that I may have been contributing to the variation that made one powder to look better than the other.

I admit that it was a bitter pill for me to swallow a few years ago when I had to conclude that I was the cause of my group size inconsistency.
But when my average group sizes reduced by 50% and the group size standard deviation also dropped, I finally accepted that I was creating the variations that masked the potential accuracy of my rifles and particular bullet/powder combinations.
(After working on my technique, I am no longer happy unless the group size Standard Deviation is under 0.060 inches, and I consider it a good day when the SD is 0.050 inches or less.)

Some of my shooting buddies who used to complain about rifles, bullets, temperature, powders, stocks, scopes, etc. as causing accuracy problems were also producing calculated group size standard deviations larger than 0.100 while they were complaining.
In my experience, SD measures above 0.1 inches are a good indicator that something isn't right with the shooter's consistency.
A couple of them finally worked on their set-up techniques and gained considerable consistency, they reduced their group size standard deviation to less than 0.1.
They stopped complaining about other stuff and worked on their technique if they saw their accuracy drop off.
Most of their group sizes are now consistently at 0.5 inches or less.

I hope you figure out the cause. Sometimes the 'easy answers' are really not answers at all.

[Mr.Snerdly]

^^^^^I haven't checked the base screws but when I put the different scope on everthing else was torqued. I will check them but I doubt that is the problem. After shooting roughly the same as before I shot a few with the 69 grain Sierra with 21.5 grains of 3031. Shot much better, from 1/2" to 3/8" Everything was Lapau cases, CCI #41 primer for 5.56. One thing that was different besides the powder was OAL, 2.24" compared to 2.26". I guess that might be a possibility.

The 783 Remington likes these bullets but I haven't shot it with the H335 powder though. I am going to see how it does with that powder. The Savage has never been as good as the Remington on light bullets. Pretty close on the heavier ones but the Remingrton is a little better there too.

[pdshooter2]

^^^^^I haven't checked the base screws but when I put the different scope on everthing else was torqued. I will check them but I doubt that is the problem. After shooting roughly the same as before I shot a few with the 69 grain Sierra with 21.5 grains of 3031. Shot much better, from 1/2" to 3/8" Everything was Lapau cases, CCI #41 primer for 5.56. One thing that was different besides the powder was OAL, 2.24" compared to 2.26". I guess that might be a possibility.

The 783 Remington likes these bullets but I haven't shot it with the H335 powder though. I am going to see how it does with that powder. The Savage has never been as good as the Remington on light bullets. Pretty close on the heavier ones but the Remingrton is a little better there too.

get rid of the 41 primer, it is a mil primer not a target primer
find some fed 205 or 205m
cci br primer
even rem 7 1/2

you are shooting an axis not a br rifle
the 783 is not a target rifle either
front and rear rest
wind flags///even sticks with plastic in the wind tape
1/9 twist your bullet selection is ok

[wbm]

Is it possible for powder to make a HUGE difference?

Yes.

[CFJunkie]

I have found that for .223 rifles, bullets at 60 grains and heavier seem to shoot better with slower powders.
Faster powders, like H335 and N133, shoot great with lighter bullets but, for me, accuracy degrades as the bullet weight gets heavier.

Powders that shoot great in .308s, H4895, N140, IMR7166, IMR4064, Varget, and RL-15, tend to shoot 69 to 77 grain bullets more accurately in my .223 rifles.
I think it has to do with the slower but more-steady burn rate accelerating the bullet down the entire length of the barrel instead of a faster burning powder running finishing its burn before the bullet exits the rifling. Think of the difference between a swift kick and a strong steady push.

In my rifles, both bolt action and semi-auto, the first 3 powders listed are the most accurate. The other three shoot well but are slightly less accurate.
I tend to believe that it could be a particular barrel preference rather than a general rule.
I suggest you try some different powders, if you can find them these days, with your particular barrel.
None of the group sizes with the different powders are incredibly different, nothing like what you are experiencing.

[Mr.Snerdly]

get rid of the 41 primer, it is a mil primer not a target primer
find some fed 205 or 205m
cci br primer
even rem 7 1/2

you are shooting an axis not a br rifle
the 783 is not a target rifle either
front and rear rest
wind flags///even sticks with plastic in the wind tape
1/9 twist your bullet selection is ok

Primers affect accuracy? I heard the military primers are a little hotter and and a little more velocity but never heard anything about accuracy but I certainly don't know. I am not using these primers because I want to but like the powder, you make do. I was surprised they all fired to be honest. Usually there is one or two that don't out of ten shots.

I am going to try 3031 with the same bullets and I also have a few Hornady 55 grain I will try with both the 335 and 3031.

[charlie b]

Std primers are not as consistent as the match primers. Important if you are getting to the smallest es/sd possible.

[Stumpkiller]

I've been shoting 53gr. Sierra #1400 HP Match and IMR 4198 in my .223 REM (old school 1:12" twist) for decades with good results. The #1410 52 gr BTHP as well.

[Dave Hoback]

Sounds like it could be a combination of things. Like Tolerance Stacking.

[Mr.Snerdly]

At least I know I did not waste money on the powder now. Tried the 69 grain Sierra BT with the 335 and roughly the same groups as the 3031, 1/2" and one was actually a little better, 5/16" Any variation was most likely operator error. My setup isn't perfect (although pretty decent) and I certainly am not perfect. I think I will just use the heavier bullets in the Axis but I think I will try the 52 grain Hornady. If I remember right, they shot pretty well.. I think I will also put the higher power scope back on since there was no difference in the groups between the two, or at least not enough that I know the other scope is still good. Higher power is a little easier to shoot for good groups, in my opinion.

I really hate to spend the kind of money the Sierra bullets go for but economy and poor results are not a good combination either. At least they are less than the 77 grain. I simply will not spend that kind of money on bullets.

[pdshooter2]

ohh helll primers make a difference in the real world...

[Robinhood]

Copper can change things too.