112 .338 LM Group Sizes

[blykins]

Good morning all, first time poster here.

I'm wondering what kind of groups you guys are seeing with the 112LM rifles. I'm in the process of accumulating brass so I can start reloading, but so far I've tried Norma Match, Winchester, Hornady, and Lapua brand ammunition.

The Winchester and Hornady were pretty disappointing to me and I've seemed to have the best results from Lapua and Norma.

Gonna show two groups, both are 100 yard groups. Using an Athlon 8-34 scope with a front rest/rear bag setup.

First group is 13 shots of Norma Match, 250 gr. 9 shots in the center with 4 stringers:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51912601125_158dccc863_c.jpg

Second group is 9 shots of Lapua Competition, 250 gr:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51951884551_6916374811_c.jpg

I was raised around benchrest rifles, mostly 220 Swift, .222 Rem Mag, and 22-250 and I'm used to sub 1/2 MOA groups at 100 yards. Getting a little more settled in life, so I'm getting back into rifle shooting. I've always wanted a .338 LM, so I bought one a year ago. Absolutely love the rifle, but I'm wondering if there are better groups to be had with hand-loaded ammunition and some trial and error.

Be interested in seeing what you guys are doing with this model of rifle.

[CFJunkie]

Yes and yes.

My hand loads for all of my rifles show more accuracy than factory, even the top level factory rounds.

One thing to be aware of, your .338 LM has way more recoil than your other rifles - the .22-250 is probably the most recoil of the set, but the .338 LM is in another league altogether.
It will take you a bit of range time and some critical self-awareness to adjust to the new rifle.

One thing to note:
The first target shows primarily high and low variation - possibly the recoil was moving you back more than you thought and you had to reset your position. If you moved too close to the scope (high POI) or not far enough (low POI).

The second target shows some high and low variation but more left to right variation - did you notice that several times the scope was to the right after you shot - the stock wasn't in the same position in your shoulder notch and the recoil was moving your barrel to the right. Even though the bullet is leaving the barrel in less than 1.3 msec, having the stock closer to your shoulder bone still can move the POI slightly to the right.

I suspect you will have to get used to the heavier recoil. It doesn't have to hurt to move you out of position and variations in set up cause more 'shooter induced variation' than almost any other factor.

I am particularly sensitive to recoil - my .223 target rifles produce groups that are the smallest, my 6.5mm CMs produce groups that are slightly larger, and my .308s produce groups that are larger still, even though I don't consider the .308 a heavy-recoil caliber.
The .223 overall 5-round group average is .294 for 700 groups.
The 6.5mm CM overall 5 round group average is 0.342 for 1049 groups from 2 rifles.
The .308 overall 5 round group average is 0.429 for 552 groups from 2 rifles.

Don't get discouraged, it will take some trigger time with the .338 LM to get used to the new rifle.
The best part is that the best 25 loads for each of the calibers is .243, .285 and .324 respectively so you will have to find out what powder, charge, bullet and jump your new rifle prefers to get the best accuracy.

For me, the caliber makes a difference because, as I said, I am sensitive to recoil and weigh about 150 lbs. so the heavier recoil moves me out of position more and I have to try and get back to the same position for the next shot. The chance for variation in set up is greater when you get moved about more. Bigger guys seem to have less of a problem.

[efm77]

The 112 Magnum Target is a great rifle and the best deal, money wise, out there for a 338LM. I have one myself. I think you'll find better accuracy with hand loads. Mine shot factory Hornady loads pretty good, but handloads are much better. Usually around 1/2" at 100 yards and that's just with workup loads that have no special tweaking. I'm sure I can get better if I play around with it more. What CF said about re-adjusting after each shot can play a role too. I'm no expert by any means in either that or reloading, but I don't find the recoil to be all that bad. The weight of the rifle combined with the brake make it just a minor shove to me. But it is still enough to have to re-adjust for the next shot.

[blykins]

Yes and yes.

My hand loads for all of my rifles show more accuracy than factory, even the top level factory rounds.

One thing to be aware of, your .338 LM has way more recoil than your other rifles - the .22-250 is probably the most recoil of the set, but the .338 LM is in another league altogether.
It will take you a bit of range time and some critical self-awareness to adjust to the new rifle.

One thing to note:
The first target shows primarily high and low variation - possibly the recoil was moving you back more than you thought and you had to reset your position. If you moved too close to the scope (high POI) or not far enough (low POI).

The second target shows some high and low variation but more left to right variation - did you notice that several times the scope was to the right after you shot - the stock wasn't in the same position in your shoulder notch and the recoil was moving your barrel to the right. Even though the bullet is leaving the barrel in less than 1.3 msec, having the stock closer to your shoulder bone still can move the POI slightly to the right.

I suspect you will have to get used to the heavier recoil. It doesn't have to hurt to move you out of position and variations in set up cause more 'shooter induced variation' than almost any other factor.

I am particularly sensitive to recoil - my .223 target rifles produce groups that are the smallest, my 6.5mm CMs produce groups that are slightly larger, and my .308s produce groups that are larger still, even though I don't consider the .308 a heavy-recoil caliber.
The .223 overall 5-round group average is .294 for 700 groups.
The 6.5mm CM overall 5 round group average is 0.342 for 1049 groups from 2 rifles.
The .308 overall 5 round group average is 0.429 for 552 groups from 2 rifles.

Don't get discouraged, it will take some trigger time with the .338 LM to get used to the new rifle.
The best part is that the best 25 loads for each of the calibers is .243, .285 and .324 respectively so you will have to find out what powder, charge, bullet and jump your new rifle prefers to get the best accuracy.

For me, the caliber makes a difference because, as I said, I am sensitive to recoil and weigh about 150 lbs. so the heavier recoil moves me out of position more and I have to try and get back to the same position for the next shot. The chance for variation in set up is greater when you get moved about more. Bigger guys seem to have less of a problem.

Thanks for the help. It does move me around a bit.

The first group I posted seemed to me like it was "stringing", which I wasn't for sure if it was barrel harmonics or powder discrepancies.

I love shooting the rifle and would love to shoot it more if it wasn't for the cost. Hopefully the reloads will help the cost too.

I remember years ago, we had a custom Sinclair .222RM rifle. It would shoot .290" groups. It was amazing.

On a different note, I do notice that the rifle heats the barrel up a lot more than I'm used to. Could I be "hot lapping" the rifle and causing some variation? I'm probably throwing a round a minute.

[blykins]

I had a reply, but it didn't go through for some reason.

Let's try again....

Thank you both for your responses. The first group with the Norma appeared to be a "stringer" situation to me, where maybe the barrel harmonics or the powder weight were getting in the way, but it could very well be the recoil. The sight picture does reset for me after each shot.

CF, our Sinclair .222RM would also shoot .290" groups. Those little caliber rifles are amazing.

I bought this rifle for some longer range stuff (which I haven't tried yet) but the old benchrest shooter in me is trying to tighten some things up first.

[CFJunkie]

I would suspect it is just going to take you getting used to a big rifle.
The good thing the .338LM is a heavy rifle.
Some of the smaller calibers are lighter and easier to cause variations just by applying a bit too much pressure to the stock during set up.

It won't take too many sessions to figure it out.
And I agree with efm77. You should expect much better performance from hand loads, but you have to find the bullet and powder combination that your particular rifle prefers.

[pdshooter2]

get yourself some berger 300's and dont look back.
several powders work well but maybe hard to find

[charlie b]

FWIW, there might be some issue with the barrel heating. Each barrel reacts differently. My .308 has to be allowed to cool between strings or it throws shots, and, on summer days here in the desert I have to have a shade over it or the sun heats the barrel too much. But, my .223 will shoot fine even when the barrel is too hot to touch.

CF makes a good point about recoil. I find I can shoot something like the .223 even with pretty bad form. As little as the .308 kicks I still have to keep better form and good trigger follow through to get those sub-MOA groups.

As far as factory loads. There aren't that many that will do sub-MOA on a regular basis, and sometimes a barrel won't even like those. I think your groups are excellent for factory stuff.

[blykins]

FWIW, there might be some issue with the barrel heating. Each barrel reacts differently. My .308 has to be allowed to cool between strings or it throws shots, and, on summer days here in the desert I have to have a shade over it or the sun heats the barrel too much. But, my .223 will shoot fine even when the barrel is too hot to touch.

CF makes a good point about recoil. I find I can shoot something like the .223 even with pretty bad form. As little as the .308 kicks I still have to keep better form and good trigger follow through to get those sub-MOA groups.

As far as factory loads. There aren't that many that will do sub-MOA on a regular basis, and sometimes a barrel won't even like those. I think your groups are excellent for factory stuff.

Thanks for the tips.

Looks like my post showed up that I thought was lost LOL

[Blue Avenger]

Thanks for the tips.

Looks like my post showed up that I thought was lost LOL

every once in a while the spam filter will grab a first post and hold it for approval, and we miss it

[blykins]

Video of me shooting. Had to go to the 100 yard indoor range but I'm often the only one there and I can concentrate.

I'm not a big guy, so the rifle does move me quite a bit, but I'm able to shoot it with both eyes open and no flinch.

Brent Lykins (@brentlykinsmotorsports) • Instagram photos and videos (https://www.instagram.com/p/CbVtD6uJT8n/)

[blykins]

Just a follow-up....

Still shooting Lapua brand box ammo. No reloads. What I've found is that the rifle can be more sensitive to barrel heat than what I'm used to with smaller calibers. If I round-robin the rifle, the group starts to stray, usually at around the #5 and #6 shot and then just gets really bad after that.

Here's the latest group at 100 yards. 4 shots in one hole and then the 5th strayed. I may take a heat gun with me next time to get some data.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52191885367_b23916ac0f_z.jpg

So, sub-MOA groups are certainly possible with factory ammo. I would imagine that hand loads would tighten it up a little bit more. I was able to shoot at 300 yards a few weeks ago and it was shooting 1 MOA groups there as well.

My only gripe is the rifle is so expensive to shoot. Recent ammunition purchases were $7-8 a round. It's got me looking at other rifles for the time being until reloads are possible or ammo pricing comes down.

[wbm]

My only gripe is the rifle is so expensive to shoot. Recent ammunition purchases were $7-8 a round. It's got me looking at other rifles for the time being until reloads are possible or ammo pricing comes down.

Goodness! That is expensive. Perhaps your hand loads will shoot better.


get yourself some berger 300's and dont look back.

Midway has those in stock. Only $117 a box.

[charlie b]

Nice improvement. Larger caliber means larger hole in barrel, less "meat". It is reacting the same way my .308 varmint weight barrel reacts with heat. 5 rounds, let it cool. On hot days let it cool a little between each round. OTOH, my .223 barely changed with heating.

The cost and recoil is why I went down to a 6BR. And it has worked out well. Bullets cost less than the .30cal, 2/3 the powder. And the recoil is closer to the .223 than to the .308.

I kept the .308 barrel for my cast bullet shooting. That is cheap and fun, but, I only get out to 500yd with it.

Heavy recoil will show up ANY small variance in your shooting position and body tension. The good thing is it will make you a better shooter.

[CFJunkie]

I'm glad to see you have the .338 LM under control.
Your latest group shows you big improvement and it appears that your rifle likes that ammo.
It also could mean that your rifle is wearing in - most of my Savages take at least 20 rounds before they are shooting at their best.

Barrel heating may be causing the one-out condition, but based on my own experiences, I would bet it has more to do with set-up movement as you complete the 5-round group.
After years of shooting and measuring, I no longer immediately blame the rifle, ammo, temperature, powder or bullets when I let one bullet out of a tight group.

I find that when any of my barrels heat up, the bullet drops a bit. I use temperature strips on my target barrels to determine relative change in barrel temperature.
My rifles shoot best with barrel temps from 85 to 105 degrees.
Over 120 degrees, the bullets tend to drop about 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch. They never seem to rise.
I suspect that the barrel bore might be expanding just a bit and the pressure is dropping a bit.

Hint, if temperature is affecting your POI, you can still shoot tight groups - they just won't group at your POA.
The danger is that if the barrel gets too hot, it will copper up very quickly and you will also create the condition for erosion or even flaking at the chamber to bore transition.

Based upon my experience, if I see a bullet rise, I automatically assume I snuck up on the scope. A 1/8 inch move closer to the eyepiece moves my bullets up 1/4 inch.
That is very easy to do with a recoiling rifle.

To my eliminate shooter induced variations that cause bullets to rise or drop unexpectedly, I have adopted this drill.
I set up and get in position - and get ready to shoot.
Then I lean my head back just enough to see the black ring at the periphery of the scope.
If it is concentric, I know I am in the center of the optical plane.
If it isn't, I move my head slightly until the black ring is concentric.
Then move my head forward just enough until the ring disappears - keeping the ring concentric as I move forward.
That puts me in the center of the optical plane at the same eye relief position every time.
Then I pull the trigger.

I admit that when I am shooting well, I sometimes forget to go through that process and almost always find one bullet go slightly higher, usually toward the end of an otherwise tight 5-round group.
It happens the most with my heavier recoiling rifles, but I now use the drill on all my rifles now, even my target .22LRs.
Paying attention to my set-up technique has reduced my group averages by 50% with my higher recoil rifles.

[blykins]

Thanks for the help.

I've also been working on "flinch" with the bigger rifle. I'm right handed but left eye dominant, so I always shoot both eyes open, no matter if it's shotgun, handgun, bow, or rifle. It's a challenge to keep both eyes glared open.

If you hit this link to my IG page, the first video is shooting.

Brent Lykins (@brentlykinsmotorsports) • Instagram photos and videos (https://www.instagram.com/p/CfhTQe4JflS/)

[Mr.Snerdly]

I bet your shoulder is sore. I simply can't handle a lot of recoil. It doesn't bother some, don't know how they do it.

[blykins]

I bet your shoulder is sore. I simply can't handle a lot of recoil. It doesn't bother some, don't know how they do it.

It’s actually not as bad as it looks. It will speckle my shoulder but no bruising and no pain.

[GrenGuy]

What is the intended use of the rifle? It should be a good 1,000 yard rig, and more.

[Dave Hoback]

1000.., Lapua Magnum? Or maybe 2500? Like waaay ELD, I would say. Way past a mile anyway. Because remember, we’ve learned recently from one of the GREATEST marksmen who has ever graced our little Forum, that shooting a mile is easy.. no big deal. :surprise: RIP. (Pouring some Bourbon to the ground in solace.. “Yer my boy Blue!”) :cool: