Factory loaded .308 match ammo for long range

[Dave Hoback]

Just have a good time man. Nothing wrong with setting goals for yourself, but don’t stress over it. Ability will naturally come as you learn. And while getting info from others is a great learning tool, there are some things you simply need to do on your own. Many years ago I got my first real taste of actual long distance shooting. My wife & I moved to Arizona & I had friend & I would go varmint hunting with. There were times we’d just be taking shots across canyons/ravines. Would aim for rock across these ravines, maybe would be 1200, 1400yds distance. I remember starting out. Usually just see the vapor trail & nothing else. My friend spotting would say, “nah, you’re WAY short buddy!” “How far” I’d ask. “Maybe 50 feet..” WHAT!!? 50 FEET?? How could I be off 50ft? LOL! So, a little time, & learning and I started seeing dust puffs come off those rocks...hitting them pretty regularly. But the most important thing, it was fun from the first time I did it & every other time after.

[jkv45]

Just have a good time man. Nothing wrong with setting goals for yourself, but don’t stress over it. Ability will naturally come as you learn. And while getting info from others is a great learning tool, there are some things you simply need to do on your own. Many years ago I got my first real taste of actual long distance shooting. My wife & I moved to Arizona & I had friend & I would go varmint hunting with. There were times we’d just be taking shots across canyons/ravines. Would aim for rock across these ravines, maybe would be 1200, 1400yds distance. I remember starting out. Usually just see the vapor trail & nothing else. My friend spotting would say, “nah, you’re WAY short buddy!” “How far” I’d ask. “Maybe 50 feet..” WHAT!!? 50 FEET?? How could I be off 50ft? LOL! So, a little time, & learning and I started seeing dust puffs come off those rocks...hitting them pretty regularly. But the most important thing, it was fun from the first time I did it & every other time after.


Thanks Dave - it's all just for fun at this point. It's always enjoyable anytime I'm shooting.

I'm a competitive person, so I just naturally want to do well - especially shooting. As a competitive pistol shooter, many years ago now, I eventually made Master with my Bullseye guns and won some state championships with air and free pistol.

I plan to find some sort of rifle competition at some point, might be mid-range or competing with a M1 Garand I have set-up. Not ready to look for any true long range competition for quite a while.

[yobuck]

Just have a good time man. Nothing wrong with setting goals for yourself, but don’t stress over it. Ability will naturally come as you learn. And while getting info from others is a great learning tool, there are some things you simply need to do on your own. Many years ago I got my first real taste of actual long distance shooting. My wife & I moved to Arizona & I had friend & I would go varmint hunting with. There were times we’d just be taking shots across canyons/ravines. Would aim for rock across these ravines, maybe would be 1200, 1400yds distance. I remember starting out. Usually just see the vapor trail & nothing else. My friend spotting would say, “nah, you’re WAY short buddy!” “How far” I’d ask. “Maybe 50 feet..” WHAT!!? 50 FEET?? How could I be off 50ft? LOL! So, a little time, & learning and I started seeing dust puffs come off those rocks...hitting them pretty regularly. But the most important thing, it was fun from the first time I did it & every other time after.
Well Dave your buddy was obviously so busy watching the trail, he forgot about looking for the actual hit. lol
As a rule though those kind of helpfull guys will say the opposite, and claim you were way high, because thats where they lost the trail.
Frankly when were hunting i have on occasion outright ask the question, did you see the actual hit? meaning the bullet making impact?
If not then please shut up about what you only think you saw.
At the very long distances you will often only see the trail to about were the bullet starts its decent down.
At that point they are dropping like a rock toward the ground, and you can completely lose the trail.
And since thats where they lost it, they think thats where it hit.
And of coarse if its very windy, you might not see it at all.

[Dave Hoback]

Thanks Dave - it's all just for fun at this point. It's always enjoyable anytime I'm shooting.

I'm a competitive person, so I just naturally want to do well - especially shooting. As a competitive pistol shooter, many years ago now, I eventually made Master with my Bullseye guns and won some state championships with air and free pistol.

I plan to find some sort of rifle competition at some point, might be mid-range or competing with a M1 Garand I have set-up. Not ready to look for any true long range competition for quite a while.


Right on! Hey, nothing wrong with being competitive. I just never really was. Was good at most things, but I was always a better instructor in things especially like shooting.

M1 Gerand competition. That'll be fun!

[jkv45]

As an update -

Attended the long range class this weekend. Weather was great - about 50F and sunny with light (most about 5 MPH) but changing winds. Wind flags were pointing in different directions from the firing line to the target most of the time. For this range, that's still better than usual- so were lucky.

We started at the 600 yard line. My Savage Model 10 FCP HS Precision with a 12x SWFA scope and factory loaded 175gr Lapua Scenar-Ls was right on with the ballistic charts I had prepared. 10 out of 10 shots were inside the 9 ring. About a 2 MOA group.

We then moved to the 1000 yard line. Making the corrections using the same chart, my first sighter shot was in the V-ring at 5-o'clock. Second sighter shot - not so much. Second shot went wide left into the white (6-ring) at 8 o'clock. I wasn't sure how it was going to be using a 12x scope at 1000, but it was fine.

Being inexperienced, and a little confused, I held center on my first shot for score - which landed at 11 o'clock in the 7-ring. I then held to the right edge of the target and fired another 7 at 1 o'clock.

I worked my way back to holding center, and the remaining shots were all in the upper right quarter of the target in the black, in a 8-shot group that measured just under 3 MOA. I should have dialed down and left a few clicks - but I was fine with just being in the black. 9 out of 10 scoring shots were in the black - which was just fine for my first time out. The group of 10 scored shots was right about 4 MOA when including the flyer at 7 o'clock in the white. I was still very pleased, and an experienced shooter could certainly have done better.

Seeing as how my windage was right-on at 600 yards, can the shift to the right at 1000 (with light but inconsistent winds from the right at 3 o'clock) be attributed to spin drift? EDIT: Based on what I've figured out, I should have moved .3 MILS left to compensate for spin drift to center my group. I'll know next time.

There were only a few of us in the class of 30 students shooting .308, and my results were honestly better than I expected for my set-up and skill level.

Thanks to all that gave advice to help me prepare. I had a great time and enjoyed the challenge of shooting 1000 yards, but my time is probably better spent at 600 yards or less for now.

EDIT: 1200 yards was available as well, but based on my data I would have been going subsonic about 1100. The electronic targets will not register if the rounds are subsonic. I partnered with my brother-in-law and his new Savage Axis Precision .308 with a 20" barrel, shooting Bullets 1st .308s loaded with 175gr SMKs. He was going subsonic before 1000, and none of his 1000 yd shots registered.

[hamiltonkiler]

Good work.
From your firearm picture it doesn’t look like you have a level on your scope.
That is a very important piece of equipment for long range. A 1-2-3 or more degree tilt of the gun scope can throw shots all over the place.

Cheers and glad you had fun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jkv45]

Good work.
From your firearm picture it doesn’t look like you have a level on your scope.
That is a very important piece of equipment for long range. A 1-2-3 or more degree tilt of the gun scope can throw shots all over the place.

Cheers and glad you had fun.

Thanks.

You're right. The photo was taken before I put one on.

I do have one now, and made sure I was level every shot. I was shooting off of a large backpack I set-up as a front bag, which required me to check level for each shot. I would expect a bipod to need less attention for each shot, but the backpack has worked well so far.

The scope level is one thing I'm going to change though. It is sitting too high and a bit too close to see easily in-position. I'm looking into options that can get it lower and farther away so it's easier to see with my non-shooting eye when I'm sighting.

[yobuck]

Fact is you could do it before you confirmed that fact.
What the class gave you in the end amounted to an opportunity to prove it to yourself.
And that in itself made it money well spent.
We could debate for a week over things like scope levels being necessary, but what is actually necessary is getting it done by whatever means.
Shooting at stationary targets of any type is a different subject than a live target.
Especially when your excitement rate is elevated, due to the nice buck youve been following in your scope is very close to being taken around a point and out of site by the hot doe he is following. Trust me, the last thing you will be thinking about is wether your scope is level.
So that means finding a better way than laying on the uneven ground using a bipod.
Things to ponder over, but good job on the class, and good job of reporting the results.

[jkv45]

Fact is you could do it before you confirmed that fact.
What the class gave you in the end amounted to an opportunity to prove it to yourself.
And that in itself made it money well spent.
We could debate for a week over things like scope levels being necessary, but what is actually necessary is getting it done by whatever means.
Shooting at stationary targets of any type is a different subject than a live target.
Especially when your excitement rate is elevated, due to the nice buck youve been following in your scope is very close to being taken around a point and out of site by the hot doe he is following. Trust me, the last thing you will be thinking about is wether your scope is level.
So that means finding a better way than laying on the uneven ground using a bipod.
Things to ponder over, but good job on the class, and good job of reporting the results.


Thanks. I felt I had prepared to do well, and things went my way.

I personally needed to do some homework and have everything set-up as good as possible in order to be able to just concentrate on shooting. Some of the students arrived without having the rifle zero'd - which I think is pretty basic. The instructors were patient, and did help them get squared-away.

My luck held out for the weather. The next day was 45F, windy, and raining.

I also have to give credit to Savage - the rifle didn't disappoint.

[yobuck]

45 degrees and windy sounds very familiar, especially in late Nov. early Dec.
But hey, one of those little gadgets you hold in your hand can fix all that stuff.
I still prefer having the wind on my back when i use mine however. lol

[charlie b]

Congratulations on an accomplishment. After shooting only at 1-200yd for many years the differences when you go longer are surprising. Even a small amount of wind has a long time to act on the bullet.

5mph at 100yd is still something like 15in of bullet movement. And much of that movement is in the last half of the bullet flight as the bullet slows. So, yeah, it could have been just the difference in wind or a combination of wind and spin.

A 4MOA group at 1000yd is around 40".

[jkv45]

Congratulations on an accomplishment. After shooting only at 1-200yd for many years the differences when you go longer are surprising. Even a small amount of wind has a long time to act on the bullet.

5mph at 100yd is still something like 15in of bullet movement. And much of that movement is in the last half of the bullet flight as the bullet slows. So, yeah, it could have been just the difference in wind or a combination of wind and spin.

A 4MOA group at 1000yd is around 40".
Thanks.

The aiming mark on the 1000 yard target we were using was 4MOA.

My 10-shot group, including the flyer, was about equal in size to the aiming mark - so about 4 MOA.

Without the flyer it was under 3.

Plenty of room for improvement, but I was satisfied with that.

[charlie b]

Just wanted to confirm. Yes, the standard NRA 1000yd target has a black center section that is 44" in dia. Based on that I would not try to read anything into why a group 'shifted' the way it did. Could have been wind, could have been you, could have been the ammo. Once you can get some smaller groups then start to look at the other factors.

[yobuck]

Just wanted to confirm. Yes, the standard NRA 1000yd target has a black center section that is 44" in dia. Based on that I would not try to read anything into why a group 'shifted' the way it did. Could have been wind, could have been you, could have been the ammo. Once you can get some smaller groups then start to look at the other factors.
Charlie, you didnt have to initiate a reality check on the guy this soon did you? lol
I have said here numerous times that if you can (consistently) shoot 1” groups at 100 yds, you are good to go out to about 1000 for hunting.
All things considered of coarse, and that can become the tricky part.
You can learn a lot about shooting distance with cartridges like a 308, without getting beat up with recoil and higher ammo cost.
But the fact remains that 1000 yds is about the tipping point reality wise for those type cartridges.
Unless of coarse your a keyboard shooter.
Pride in our own ability plays a larger roll than it really should in my opinion at least when it comes to any type of shooting.
Especially with long range shooting however, pride should take on a lesser roll.
And thats especially true when the target is a live animal.
We all tend to do our load testing and scope zeroing at a range from some type of a solid and level bench.
But now were going out to shoot at 1000 yds and just lay on the ground and shoot from some type of improvised rest?
When we think about ways to improve ourselves be thinking about that one first.

[jkv45]

Just wanted to confirm. Yes, the standard NRA 1000yd target has a black center section that is 44" in dia. Based on that I would not try to read anything into why a group 'shifted' the way it did. Could have been wind, could have been you, could have been the ammo. Once you can get some smaller groups then start to look at the other factors.
My flyers were all the other direction (left).

I'm trying to understand the reason for a change from a centered 600 yard group to an off-center (high and right) 1000 yard group.

I'm in no way saying my shooting was great (I think you'll agree), but the 9 rounds that were in a group were all inside a 2MOA x 2MOA square in the right upper 1/4 of the aiming mark - so I feel that does tell me something.

Based on what I know now, spin drift would have moved my shots in that direction, that amount, and correcting .3 MILs left and .3 MILs down would have centered my group. The effects of spin drift was not discussed, and I didn't think of it at the time.

[yobuck]

Well if i may be so bold, explain spin drift.
Did you learn about spin drift by say reading one of Brian Litz books?
Frankly untill about 10 years ago or so i had never heard that term even used.
But then ive never read any books on this subject.
But today it seems to be used everywhere i read about it.
My question would be what does it matter anyway why a shot lands in a particular place?
The bigger question to me is what are you going to do about it?
If it matters, then it only matters if it isnt corrected.
If your simply shooting for group, then it matters not where the group is on the target anyway, even way out in the white part.
Nothing here matters other than how well you shoot, and that includes knowing about things like spin drift.
Leave all that stuff to the armchair wind reading experts.
By the way, did your class include any pointers on that topic?

[jkv45]

Well if i may be so bold, explain spin drift.
Did you learn about spin drift by say reading one of Brian Litz books?
Frankly untill about 10 years ago or so i had never heard that term even used.
But then ive never read any books on this subject.
But today it seems to be used everywhere i read about it.
My question would be what does it matter anyway why a shot lands in a particular place?
The bigger question to me is what are you going to do about it?
If it matters, then it only matters if it isnt corrected.
If your simply shooting for group, then it matters not where the group is on the target anyway, even way out in the white part.
Nothing here matters other than how well you shoot, and that includes knowing about things like spin drift.
Leave all that stuff to the armchair wind reading experts.
By the way, did your class include any pointers on that topic?

Hmmm...

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Are you being sarcastic?

Are you asking if spin drift exists and if I'm drinking the Kool-Aid?

In an effort to understand what's going on, I'm comparing the results from 600 yards (which were a centered group) to 1000 yards (which were not centered). The conclusion I came to was that spin drift changed the point of impact up and to the right. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm just looking for answers here.

Because this was the first time at that distance, I didn't go making adjustments every time a shot didn't land in the center. I was more interested in trying to produce a decent group than a decent score. It was a class, and not a match.

Understanding what happened, and why, are the basics of learning. There is a lot to learn in long range shooting, and this was just a start.

We did not discuss spin drift in the classroom portion of the class, and because I hadn't shot at extended distances before it had never been a factor to consider.

[yobuck]

Hmmm...

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Are you being sarcastic?

Are you asking if spin drift exists and if I'm drinking the Kool-Aid?

In an effort to understand what's going on, I'm comparing the results from 600 yards (which were a centered group) to 1000 yards (which were not centered). The conclusion I came to was that spin drift changed the point of impact up and to the right. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm just looking for answers here.

Because this was the first time at that distance, I didn't go making adjustments every time a shot didn't land in the center. I was more interested in trying to produce a decent group than a decent score. It was a class, and not a match.

Understanding what happened, and why, are the basics of learning. There is a lot to learn in long range shooting, and this was just a start.

We did not discuss spin drift in the classroom portion of the class, and because I hadn't shot at extended distances before it had never been a factor to consider.
No, im not being sarcastic, and im also not implying you drink Cool Aid.
You seem to think that (spin drift) caused your shots to land where they did on your target.
I stated that untill very recently i had never heard that term used, and asked that you explain it since you seem to know more about it than i do.
Possibly someone else here can answer that question then, because i would really like an answer to the question.
And an accurate answer as well, because i already have my own opinion on spin drift, and lots of other things talked about today as well.
There is another term you might hear used also, but not nearly as often.
And that would be the (coralis) affect on a bullet, assuming i spelled that correctly?
Anyway it would depend upon which side of the equator you live on as to how you would go about allowing for it.
And the easiest way to know is to watch which way the water swirls when you flush your toilet.
Very important to know when you decide to shoot your Winny at say 3500 yards.
Did somebody here just ask about where these sites are going?
Well this is where folks.

[jkv45]

No, im not being sarcastic, and im also not implying you drink Cool Aid.
You seem to think that (spin drift) caused your shots to land where they did on your target.
I stated that untill very recently i had never heard that term used, and asked that you explain it since you seem to know more about it than i do.
Possibly someone else here can answer that question then, because i would really like an answer to the question.
And an accurate answer as well, because i already have my own opinion on spin drift, and lots of other things talked about today as well.
There is another term you might hear used also, but not nearly as often.
And that would be the (coralis) affect on a bullet, assuming i spelled that correctly?
Anyway it would depend upon which side of the equator you live on as to how you would go about allowing for it.
And the easiest way to know is to watch which way the water swirls when you flush your toilet.
Very important to know when you decide to shoot your Winny at say 3500 yards.
Did somebody here just ask about where these sites are going?
Well this is where folks.
Yes I do.

You mentioned Bryan Litz. If you respect his ballistic research, this is what he has to say about spin drift -

"Gyroscopic (spin) Drift

Having a left or right twist will change the direction of gyroscopic drift. Bullets fired from right twist barrels drift to the right, and vise versa by the same amount, typically 8-9 inches at1000 yards for small arms trajectories"

Quoted from this page, which also includes information on what he refers to as "Coriolis Acceleration" - https://appliedballisticsllc.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Gyroscopic-Drift-and-Coriolis-Effect.pdf

Based on his information, and information I've gathered elsewhere, I do believe my shift was from spin drift. It makes sense to me.

Again - I don't understand what you mean by "Did somebody here just ask about where these sites are going? Well this is where folks."

I'm trying to learn, and be respectful here, but your comments sure make me wonder what your intent is.

[yobuck]

Yes I do.

You mentioned Bryan Litz. If you respect his ballistic research, this is what he has to say about spin drift -

"Gyroscopic (spin) Drift

Having a left or right twist will change the direction of gyroscopic drift. Bullets fired from right twist barrels drift to the right, and vise versa by the same amount, typically 8-9 inches at1000 yards for small arms trajectories"

Quoted from this page, which also includes information on what he refers to as "Coriolis Acceleration" - https://appliedballisticsllc.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Gyroscopic-Drift-and-Coriolis-Effect.pdf

Based on his information, and information I've gathered elsewhere, I do believe my shift was from spin drift. It makes sense to me.

Again - I don't understand what you mean by "Did somebody here just ask about where these sites are going? Well this is where folks."

I'm trying to learn, and be respectful here, but your comments sure make me wonder what your intent is.
Well my intent is to lend what experience i have doing this stuff for 50 years in the hope it might shorten the learning curve for others like you.
Brian Litz has a technical mind, and i have a practical mind. If technical is where you are, then by all means follow along with whatever Brian says.
50 years ago Brian was clueless as to any of this even going on.
But where im from, people were shooting guns like 6.5x300 Wetherbys, 30x378 Wetherbys and 7x300 Wetherbys.
Which was long before even Wetherby decided those cartridges were worth pursuing.
Brians employer, Berger, wasent even on the radar screen as for good long range hunting bullets at that time.
And that isnt meant in any way as to discredit Berger, just pointing out a few facts somehow lost today, thanks to people like Brian.
A few years back on another site, Brian was discussing first round hits at extended distances, which most would agree to be beyond 1500 yards.
Of coarse his awe struck viewers were asking the normal polite type questions.
Finally, i asked him what the odds were of making a first round hit at say 2000 yards using his criteria for doing it.
And his answer was, i quote, ( first round hits at 2000 yards can be expected).
Well guess what, so can snow in Jacksonville be expected, but be carefull where you put your thumb while your waiting for it.
So that sums up my opinion of experts like Brian when it comes right down to actually getting it done.
But hey, your not me, and you probably at this point dont even like me.
But you know what? if you keep doing this stuff, at some point you will be thinking a bit differently about it all.
My advise is very simple, you want to do this?
Just go shoot, and the more the better.
Because the experts in the end are really only about selling their books.