Which would be best

[Mr.Snerdly]

for accuracy? I can sort my cases by two methods--by weight or by length. By length, I mean the dimension of the cartridge head to the shoulder. I was given quite a few cases and they were sized too short, probably .004-.006 too short to have a nice fit in the chamber. They also vary in weight. I figure they were two different lots and they vary quite a bit. This is for shorter range shooting since I won't be able to go much over 100 yards until fall. These cases have also been fired several times and it doesn't seem they are growing much. If I wanted them to stay he same size, no doubt they would grow like a weed but that is the way things work sometimes..

[Robinhood]

You could hydro form your brass by putting spent primers back in your brass, pull the hardware for the expanding mandrel, push the lubed brass into your die set to fit your chamber or longer.

Polish a 3 inch piece of 5/16 drill rod until it slides into the neck of your brass while it is in the die(.305"?). Use Chapstick or imperial sizing wax and completely cover the brass in a thin layer so the water does not make the brass stick. Using a suitable tool poor water into the case. Place the polished rod into the neck and give it a good whack on the end of the drill rod. Some towels laying on your bench are good for this operation.

Check your base to shoulder dimension and see if that fixed it. You might have to re size but make sure you blow all the water off. If you get water in there then we have to drill and tap the base of the case to pull it out.

[yobuck]

Why cant you just sort them as you shoot them?

[charlie b]

I do it in probably too simple a manner.

Take fired cases and deprime, clean and resize. Trim to consistent length. Then weight sort. Theoretically that means they will be the same volume.

Make sure they are cleaned well. I use a wet rotary tumbler with pins, then I put them into an ultrasonic cleaner.

To be very precise about it you should measure the volume with liquid. Don't deprime the case, but, size and trim. Measure weight. Fill with liquid. Measure weight. You can use the weight difference directly or calculate the volume based on the density of the fluid.

You can also use other mediums to fill the cases, like a fine sand or powder (not gunpowder). Just have to make sure you get it all out when done with the measurements.

[Robinhood]

I do it in probably too simple a manner.

Take fired cases and deprime, clean and resize. Trim to consistent length. Then weight sort. Theoretically that means they will be the same volume.

Make sure they are cleaned well. I use a wet rotary tumbler with pins, then I put them into an ultrasonic cleaner.

To be very precise about it you should measure the volume with liquid. Don't deprime the case, but, size and trim. Measure weight. Fill with liquid. Measure weight. You can use the weight difference directly or calculate the volume based on the density of the fluid.

You can also use other mediums to fill the cases, like a fine sand or powder (not gunpowder). Just have to make sure you get it all out when done with the measurements.

Weight is so much more accurate than volume.

[charlie b]

But, weighing does not take into account deviations in the shapes of the rim area of the brass.

[yobuck]

So after all that and there are still a few high shots?
Then what?

[Robinhood]

But, weighing does not take into account deviations in the shapes of the rim area of the brass.


Then sorting is futile. One could expect with reasonable certainty that the process of machining the rim to be consistent within the same lot. A reason people use high end brass for accuracy is that the deviation between cases is minimal. If you use water to check your cases and only verify length you are missing a vital dimension. Body diameter.

When checking previously fired brass(even to a greater degree from different rifles) Sliding sized cases into a Wilson case holder will demonstrate how cases vary in O.D. As the body diameter increases the case will sit further back in the holder. Shop vernacular might cal it stand off.

Annealing before sizing helps reduce the extreme differences. It is a lot easier, when you get down to it, to purchase quality brass. Inspect visually, weigh, size and load. When you are just starting out with what you can afford you can chase all that other crap. It is a great learning experience to take the road to demonstrate the importance of it all. I believe anyway. I had no tutor. Just a desire to learn as much as possible and shrink my groups at 600 and 1000. Optimal Charge Weight helped me as much as anything in my reloading process.


Yobuck, You have more years reloading than anybody I know. You don't ask a question without knowing most of the possible answers at a minimum. How I approach this; Is it an issue with my purpose? There is a high probability that the pressure is different with that case. Mark it for further investigation. Root cause? Neck tension is probably the issue if case weight is close to the others, rule out powder charge and bullet RO. etc... Check neck thickness,turn all brass minimally for 95% cleanup if there is an issue. Or, my first effort, Anneal.

I am always interested in your experience yobuck. What is your approach?

In the Grand Scheme of things, none of this is required for the plinksters and everyday shooter. Just things to consider when you have a real quest for Precision and Accuracy. Beginning with new quality brass, Is the easiest route. Widespread availability of quality brass has raised the level of accuracy and precision for many new reloaders and shooters.

Success reduces frustration and increases happiness. :cool: The use of range or cheap brass requires a lot of attention for the guy chasing those small groups. There is a lot more to consistent small groups than your reloads. Take it all in, use what you learn to your benefit and put the rest in the back file.

[yobuck]

Then sorting is futile. One could expect with reasonable certainty that the process of machining the rim to be consistent within the same lot. A reason people use high end brass for accuracy is that the deviation between cases is minimal. If you use water to check your cases and only verify length you are missing a vital dimension. Body diameter.

When checking previously fired brass(even to a greater degree from different rifles) Sliding sized cases into a Wilson case holder will demonstrate how cases vary in O.D. As the body diameter increases the case will sit further back in the holder. Shop vernacular might cal it stand off.

Annealing before sizing helps reduce the extreme differences. It is a lot easier, when you get down to it, to purchase quality brass. Inspect visually, weigh, size and load. When you are just starting out with what you can afford you can chase all that other crap. It is a great learning experience to take the road to demonstrate the importance of it all. I believe anyway. I had no tutor. Just a desire to learn as much as possible and shrink my groups at 600 and 1000. Optimal Charge Weight helped me as much as anything in my reloading process.


Yobuck, You have more years reloading than anybody I know. You don't ask a question without knowing most of the possible answers at a minimum. How I approach this; Is it an issue with my purpose? There is a high probability that the pressure is different with that case. Mark it for further investigation. Root cause? Neck tension is probably the issue if case weight is close to the others, rule out powder charge and bullet RO. etc... Check neck thickness,turn all brass minimally for 95% cleanup if there is an issue. Or, my first effort, Anneal.

I am always interested in your experience yobuck. What is your approach?

In the Grand Scheme of things, none of this is required for the plinksters and everyday shooter. Just things to consider when you have a real quest for Precision and Accuracy. Beginning with new quality brass, Is the easiest route. Widespread availability of quality brass has raised the level of accuracy and precision for many new reloaders and shooters.

Success reduces frustration and increases happiness. :cool: The use of range or cheap brass requires a lot of attention for the guy chasing those small groups. There is a lot more to consistent small groups than your reloads. Take it all in, use what you learn to your benefit and put the rest in the back file.
Dont be confusing the terms ( Longevity with knowledge.)
To do so would be a mistake.
But i have found that putting on my left sock first works best for me.
Except that now that i live in Florida, i dont even wear socks much anymore.

[charlie b]

LOL

I have to admit I never sorted cases until a few months ago. Then I started down the rabbit hole :) You can get consistent 0.5MOA loads (at 100 and 200yd) without taking "extreme" measures during reloading. No sorting of cases, no weighing of bullets, no frequent trimming, no primer pocket work, etc. Just measure the powder and seat bullets consistently. Quality bullets do matter when going from 1MOA to 0.5MOA. I still do not sort my .223 cases.

For most big game hunting (~2MOA) you can simply throw the powder charges from a powder measure and bypass the scales.

That's how I reload pistol cartridges. If shooting a lot of pistol rounds I won't even clean the cases. Pick them up, run them through the progressive, and load them in magazines.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

If you have issues with fit in the chamber because they (the cases) were trimmed too short,
load them to a jam into the lands and fire form.
After that, be careful that you don't push the shoulders back too far and have that same issue all over again.
Me? Never bothered to weigh or sort by length. And short cases got blown out from being jammed into the lands.
All loaded rounds produce bug holes so I don't get too picky. 5 shot groups that are covered with a dime.;):cool:
And, I use Precision Bushing Bump Dies so my cases don't grow and don't need much in the way of trimming.

[Mr.Snerdly]

I have decided to not use a lot of them. Believe it or not, I found several that were over .100" bumped too far back, one was even .120". None of them are what you would call high quality brands in the first place. I will sort through the best of the various brands and select the best for each brand. I can kind of understand why they were given to me now. If things ever get back to normal, I will buy some Lapua cases. Far better quality and longer lasting too.

[yobuck]

I have decided to not use a lot of them. Believe it or not, I found several that were over .100" bumped too far back, one was even .120". None of them are what you would call high quality brands in the first place. I will sort through the best of the various brands and select the best for each brand. I can kind of understand why they were given to me now. If things ever get back to normal, I will buy some Lapua cases. Far better quality and longer lasting too.
Normal might require us to do an about face, then march back in time Snerdly.
If you were to have visited a varmit class benchrest match 50 or more years ago, you would have seen lots of ragged hole groups.
Likewise if you look back to the mid 80s 1000 yard heavy gun record, you will find that the most recent one, now about 10 years old, is less than 1 inch smaller.
And why is that record 10 years old?
And consider also that even in the 80s, the world had yet to become enriched with all the wonderfull/very expensive scopes we must have in order to even compete today.

So who’s kidding who here?

[Fuj']

If things ever get back to normal, I will buy some Lapua cases. Far better quality and longer lasting too.

Another trap to fall into.

[charlie b]

Normal might require us to do an about face, then march back in time Snerdly.
If you were to have visited a varmit class benchrest match 50 or more years ago, you would have seen lots of ragged hole groups.
Likewise if you look back to the mid 80s 1000 yard heavy gun record, you will find that the most recent one, now about 10 years old, is less than 1 inch smaller.
And why is that record 10 years old?
And consider also that even in the 80s, the world had yet to become enriched with all the wonderfull/very expensive scopes we must have in order to even compete today.

So who’s kidding who here?

Yep, improvements are measured in small fractions now. Might be of note that some of the most accurate barrels are made the 'old fashioned' way, single point cutting and hand lapping. In all areas of the sport not much has changed except maybe the optics. And long range the better optics are not that much of an improvement when the mirage kicks up.

IMHO, the records change when someone gets a really low wind day and they shoot well.

charlie

[Robinhood]

IMHO, the records change when someone gets a really low wind day and they shoot well.

charlie

Yes they do

[yobuck]

Well dont get the wrong impression of what my opinion is.
Im very well aware of what takes place in order to get an accurate load suitable for competition among the best shooters using ( the best guns).
Fact is however most of us arent the best shooters and certainly arent using the best guns.
Sorta like putting hi test gas in the old Chevy imop.
But fact also is that some really good shooting can be done by just average folks using ( decent ) ammo with decent guns.
And that even includes shooting at long distances.
And if you dont believe that, then ask yourself if youve ever tried doing it.
There are ways to improve your shooting that dont include precise loading, or owning an annealing setup or a chronagraph.
My advise would be to do that first, then decide on if you even need the other stuff.
We need first to decide the direction we wish to go, then do what it takes in order to get there.
And it dosent always require the best shooter with the most accurate rifle.

[Fuj']

IMHO, the records change when someone gets a really low wind day and they shoot well.

charlie

Yes Sir !! Nothing like a good relay number at the right time
of the day. I shot a match that I had to register late. My relays
turned out to be late in the day where the light was even and
the winds settled. Still got my ass handed to me but still in the
money and could get a pick off the prize table. Mid day for the
others was rough. Now consider most of us were shooting Hart
.222's

[Robinhood]

Well dont get the wrong impression of what my opinion is.
Im very well aware of what takes place in order to get an accurate load suitable for competition among the best shooters using ( the best guns).
Fact is however most of us arent the best shooters and certainly arent using the best guns.
Sorta like putting hi test gas in the old Chevy imop.
But fact also is that some really good shooting can be done by just average folks using ( decent ) ammo with decent guns.
And that even includes shooting at long distances.
And if you dont believe that, then ask yourself if youve ever tried doing it.
There are ways to improve your shooting that dont include precise loading, or owning an annealing setup or a chronagraph.
My advise would be to do that first, then decide on if you even need the other stuff.
We need first to decide the direction we wish to go, then do what it takes in order to get there.
And it dosent always require the best shooter with the most accurate rifle.


Absolutely! At 200 or 300 velocity changes are not as apparent. When stretching it out, the further you go the more obvious minor differences show up. Shoot three or five shot groups at 100 tells you little about a longer range target or even LRH load. And even less if you happen to put your action in a quality target stock or chassis in an attempt to compete.

Like you said yobuck, having everything else in order is priority. It is when you have refined your shooting skills and learned to optimize your equipment and your best still isn't where you believe it should be.

Hunting loads are a different animal. First shot accuracy is everything. If you have not killed it with three maybe you should tighten up your acceptable distance or change cartridges.

Good post buck.

[charlie b]

....But fact also is that some really good shooting can be done by just average folks using ( decent ) ammo with decent guns.
And that even includes shooting at long distances.
And if you dont believe that, then ask yourself if youve ever tried doing it.
There are ways to improve your shooting that dont include precise loading, or owning an annealing setup or a chronagraph.
My advise would be to do that first, then decide on if you even need the other stuff.
We need first to decide the direction we wish to go, then do what it takes in order to get there.
And it dosent always require the best shooter with the most accurate rifle.

All so true.

For those who don't have a long distance range at hand, their goals and procedures will be much different. Same with those who just hunt. If I did not have a 1000yd range handy I'd probably have gone a different direction as well.

And then there is cast bullet shooting, if you want to add a bunch more variables :) Makes getting below MOA really tough.