Bullets

[Mr.Snerdly]

I sometimes wonder if the more expensive bullets are worth it. I bought some Speer 75 grain for the 243 and it seems they shoot just as good as the Nosler 70 grain ballistic tips that Savage recommends. I got them for $16.29 per hundred and the Noslers are now $37. I didn't pay quite that much for the Noslers but they are that now. I also looked at the MidwayUSA website and they are all sold out of the Speers, even sold out of the 1000 size and they have gone up about 2 cents per bullet. I also got some Speer 52 grain for the 223s to see how they compare to the Sierras. If they give roughly equal performance for half the cost or less, why not. I always thought Speer had a good reputation years ago but it seems no one says much about them on this forum.

[charlie b]

Depends on how accurate you want to be.

As an example, 69 and 77gn Nosler competition vs Sierra Match Kings. THe Noslers were about $10 less per 100. They shot 'about' the same. 'About' means they were in the 0.7MOA range and the Sierras were under 0.5MOA. Plain jane 55gn FMJBT bullets are close to but not under MOA.

To a huge number of people that means they are the same. Not to me. Now, 77gn Sierra Tipped Match Kings are supposed to be more accurate than the HP SMK's. But, I am not a good enough shooter to tell the difference so I buy the slightly cheaper SMK's.

In the .308 I can't tell the difference between 155, 168 SMK, 168AMax and 155gn ELD-match. But, the Berger and Lapua 155gn bullets give much tighter groups at 600 and 1000yd. (yes, I know 168SMK's are not 'good' at long range).

OTOH, I shoot cast in the .308. It give me great joy to shoot 10 round groups that are under 1MOA (it doesn't happen a lot).

So, it all depends on what you want to see on target, and how well you shoot, and how well you reload.

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[Robinhood]

If you are striving for small groups there is much more to it than bullets. Bullet comparison without good reloading knowledge and habits holds little value. Top shooters shoot Bergers, lapua or customs. Not because they are more expensive but because of performance.

[Mr.Snerdly]

If you are striving for small groups there is much more to it than bullets. Bullet comparison without good reloading knowledge and habits holds little value. Top shooters shoot Bergers, lapua or customs. Not because they are more expensive but because of performance.

What are good reloading techniques, without spending a good deal of money on highly specialized equipment? I know there are things I could do to get more accurate but I don't want to spend thousands of dollars either. I am using RCBS and Lee reloading tools.

[Robinhood]

What are good reloading techniques, without spending a good deal of money on highly specialized equipment? I know there are things I could do to get more accurate but I don't want to spend thousands of dollars either. I am using RCBS and Lee reloading tools.


This is my opinion there are others like it but this one is mine.

I like to have all the same brand brass weight sorted or better yet the same lot. (I don't use range pickups for anything but blasting...if I do I Brand/Weight sort. believe it or not I want cases within a half grain before prep. When I finish a batch every one can go back on the scale and hit the same weight.

I will have an idea were I want to start in grains and work up in .03 increments. 42.0, 42.3, 42.6 etc... My method of finding the perfect load is similar with most methods. I test loads at 400 yds.

I anneal with a propane torch. Not too close or the brass will start off gassing in about 5 seconds. I want all of my loads to have the same neck tension. Feel is all I go by but I pay close attention, the rich kids have arbor presses with pressure gauges. After every two firings. Match stuff after every firing.

I prep all of my brass dimensionally the same if possible. don't be afraid to cull. I Use a Lyman power neck trimmer or a manual Wilson trimmer, Lyman vld chamfer for the neck ID. I remove the burr from the flash hole punch process. I have carbide primer pocket uniformer. Lee and RCBS will get the job done most of the time. A good cast press with good alignment is needed

I double check the weight of my loads to make sure they are precise and repeat check within .02 gr. I have tuned and used tuned beam scales on special setups to reduce scale movement and I have use digital that have .02 gr tolerance. All strain gauge scales drift so you have to be patient with no air movement and no electrical disturbance. Double or triple check.

I want < .003 R.O near the end of the bullet. < .001 if I am checking near the Ogive. I check neck R.O. after sizing. I machined a run out stand and use a test indicator that reads in .0005 increments. No need to get any better than that.

I test loads touching lands. After that, i move them back to see if I can get better harmonics. I normally will assemble loads that I believe will be too hot. When I get a pressure sign I will stop and pull the components and reload those lighter.

Pillar and bedding can help. If there is any spring in your action screws you can pillar and bed for cheap. Even find improvement with JB weld for bedding material. If your screws make contact and then turn more than 1/4 turn to get tight you need some amount of bedding work. I go from zero inch lbs to 50 inch lbs in less than 1/4 or I redo it.

Light repeatable weight pull trigger is important for a target gun also.

I am not responsible for contradictions or confusing statements. Do what you can when you can afford it. I Don't have top quality equipment. The time it takes to get where i want to be shows it. I take my time but I love the process. Time or money for accuracy....most of the time both.

[Mr.Snerdly]

I do many of the things you listed but not all. I don't see how you can get the weight of the brass that close. I have several brands and there is quite a variation not only between the brands but also within the same brand. I suspect they may be different lots but even within the ones that are close, there can be more variation than you tolerate. I do most of the things you say but not all. I am gong to make something to check neck runout and also bullet runout. I don't anneal that often, probably about 4 or 5 firings. I remove the burr inside the flash hole, although I have found with Lapua brass it is not necessary. I don't have a pocket uniformer yet but it might be a good investment and not too expensive. I weigh every load on a beam scale and try to get as close as the eye can determine with a powder trickler.

Thanks for the tips as there is always ways to improve and I will incorporate some of the things you mentioned.

[Mr.Snerdly]

You have a scale that weighs down to .02 of a grain? Surely this has to be a very high quality digital scale and more money than I would want to spend.. I try to get within .05 of a grain but the scale itself doesn't measure that precise in normal graduations. What I do is look where the pointer is on the scale, add .1 grain and note the position of the marker and then make a mark between the two points. I have heard some say .1 of a grain doesn't matter too much but I guess when you are talking about shrinking your group size in thousandths of an inch rather than tenths or even hundredths of an inch maybe it does. I figure if I can get my groups down to 1/4 MOA on a somewhat consistent basis I will be happy. I know to get below .2 MOA would not be possible with what I am working with. That would cost a lot of money, not just in reloading equipment but in extremely precision guns and scopes. Most likely I don't have the ability to do that even if I had the equipment.

[Robinhood]

What distance do you shoot?
Honestly your .05 is good enough until you start reaching out there.


Scott Parker tunes beam scales that are a very popular item for guys who can't or couldnt afford a high end digital scale. I will attach the scale to a larger heavy board with level adjusting screws and a pivot. Wide base and heavy. I use the platform to level the scal to zero. I found that when you level the scales with the leveling screw built in the zero drifts as you weigh and dump moving the pan off and on. I use a web cam to view the pointer on a computer screen. I have made trial weights to test zero between loads. I do this until i am confident I am not getting any drift. I do this because I believe it made me more consistent combined with annealing and better bullets. Scales have come a long way but scales with a strain gauge will still drift so you have to weigh at least three times to be certain.

I did not believe about brass weights either until I watched a video where 175gr FGMM cartridges were disassembled and the cases were weighed. I started buying FGMM brass from the same lot. It was hard to believe how close the weight of the cases were. Even from different lots they were within 1.5 gr's.

Dan Newberry, who did this video is a respected reloader. He published the O ptimal Charge Weight theory(OCW). I use this when I narrow down my loads.

https://www.twincityrodandgun.com/docs/Dan%20Newberry%20-%20OCW.pdf


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDIu6Mivi-Y

[Mr.Snerdly]

Very interesting links and also the thread about high end scales.

I will be only shooting 100 yard now until fall when he crops are out. I never shoot over 300 yards since I think a 223 is in way over its head after that. The 243 would go another 75 or so but I think anything after that is foolish for me. Not that I don't understand guys wanting to go to 600 or more yards but it is just not something I think I could do.

Thanks for the links and advice, I think I learned a few things.

[charlie b]

At shorter distances, and not trying for shooting in the 'zeros', then some things like powder charges, can be less precise. When you start stretching out in range, everything becomes important. IMHO, brass prep is probably the most important aspect.

I am kind of a hack, mainly because I am not that good a shooter. I might be able to shoot 1/4" at 100yd when I am doing well, but, most of the time all I can do is 1/2". I know my rifle is shooting better than that, it is me that is the problem :)

If you have not read it, look up the Houston Warehouse shooting story.


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[hamiltonkiler]

Very interesting links and also the thread about high end scales.

I will be only shooting 100 yard now until fall when he crops are out. I never shoot over 300 yards since I think a 223 is in way over its head after that. The 243 would go another 75 or so but I think anything after that is foolish for me. Not that I don't understand guys wanting to go to 600 or more yards but it is just not something I think I could do.

Thanks for the links and advice, I think I learned a few things.

Yea you can. You need the right optics.
Nothing in shooting sports to me is more satisfying than hearing the report back from steel ringing.


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[Robinhood]

Yea you can. You need the right optics.
Nothing in shooting sports to me is more satisfying than hearing the report back from steel ringing.
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HK is correct. It ain't nothing but a thang.

...and banging steel doesn't require the perfect loads like shooting for scores. .75-1 moa is normally good enough. Those hits keep you motivated

[charlie b]

But, when the other guys are having trouble hitting a gong at 600, I can whip out the little .223 and hit it 5 times in a row. :) Then I hang up my 5" gong and hit it as well. Loads of fun.

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[Robinhood]

But, when the other guys are having trouble hitting a gong at 600, I can whip out the little .223 and hit it 5 times in a row. :) Then I hang up my 5" gong and hit it as well. Loads of fun.

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Seems like you are often mentioning that you aren't that good of a shooter, or something to that effect....now your telling us you are shooting a 223 sub moa at 600 yards with ease. Getting close to a 200 10X score if I recall F/TR target dimensions correctly. I have a load like that but on my belly and the switching wind It gets tough to hold a 198. What is your load? :p

[charlie b]

77gn SMK's at 2800fps. Bench rest. And when I say I am not that good I mean that I am good for 1/2MOA at 100 and less than 1MOA at 600. Bipod as in F/TR and my best would be 1 to 2MOA. Especially prone.

Most guys I know that are good at bench rest will shoot less than 1/2MOA on a regular basis.

Once the wind kicks up all bets are off as I am pretty bad at doping wind. I don't even go to the range if the wind is much over 5mph.

PS I do not compete. I found out early on that I fail under pressure.

[Mr.Snerdly]

I am beginning to think these cheaper bullets were not such a bargain after all. The Axis averaged .91 MOA and the Remington 783 averaged .85 MOA. I think both guns are at least .5 MOA guns and I have done better with both but I have also done worse with both so I believe about .5 MOA is probably about right. I did load this in Winchester brass and although I doubt it will be much different, I will try the Lapua brass. Also, I think it wouldn't hurt to clean both of them before I make another attempt. It would really be nice to be able to get these bullets to work, less than half the price of the Sierras.

I guess it is also possible neither rifle shoots this weight bullet well. They are a lot lighter than the Sierras I have been shooting.

[charlie b]

I get a bit worse from the cheap bullets I buy. If I am shooting at things like soda cans at 200yd they work ok.

I just like shooting the little rifle at longer ranges, even if I don't hit the little gong every time. For that I need the extra accuracy of the better, and heavier, bullets.

[CFJunkie]

I have had the same results with cheaper bullets in just about all calibers.
The difference is especially evident in the .22LR ammo.

Years ago I bought some cheap bullets and when they didn't shoot all that accurately, I measured the bullet weights and base to tip lengths and compared them to some Sierra Match Kings of the same weight that I knew shot well in the same rifle.
I found much more variation in both weight and base to tip lengths with the cheaper bullets.

As far as I can determine, that hasn't changed much over the ensuing years.
A friend recently bought a batch of 55 grain bullets because they were low cost and thought he got a bargain.
When he loaded them and took them to the range, he found out that his bargain bullets shot groups about 2x the size of his higher cost bullets.
Not much of a bargain if you're into measuring group sizes.

With .22LR bullets, I have read that the really expensive match bullet manufacturers weigh all the lead blanks and only use the blanks that are within a tight tolerance to form their best ammo.
Then after a run, they measure a sample in multiple barrels (Eley uses 6 Anschutz barrels for their testing of Tenex and Match) to determine whether each lot fits within their tolerances for the particular ammo.

For a particular bullet weight, the copper and lead are really all the same cost for both high cost and bargain bullets.
The extra steps to attain quality are what you are paying for.
The cost of determining whether the bullets are up to quality standards determines the final price of the bullets and the improved consistency from bullet to bullet determines the improved results.

[Robinhood]

77gn SMK's at 2800fps. Bench rest. And when I say I am not that good I mean that I am good for 1/2MOA at 100 and less than 1MOA at 600. Bipod as in F/TR and my best would be 1 to 2MOA. Especially prone.

Most guys I know that are good at bench rest will shoot less than 1/2MOA on a regular basis.

Once the wind kicks up all bets are off as I am pretty bad at doping wind. I don't even go to the range if the wind is much over 5mph.

PS I do not compete. I found out early on that I fail under pressure.


I don't think you give yourself enough credit. For me my competition experience was with some really great shooters(with seemingly unlimited budgets) from all over the state of Texas. I learned early on to just do my best and I was my only competition. When you are looking at everyone shooting master or high master scores you will quickly throw in the towel or, start hanging out with the F open guys that like to talk about what they do. Then find the stuff that applies to you(financially) and just try to improve. Probably how I became over anal about some things. Often the guys lucky enough to have a range close to home or at home are the best shooters.

[Mr.Snerdly]

I tried again after a thorough cleaning of both guns and I have good news and bad news. The Remington is down to about .62-65 MOA (average) as close as I can measure but the Savage opened up to around 1.25 MOA. I also changed seating depth, moving the Remington about .032 off the lands and I don't really know where the Savage is since it is impossible to measure with the short bullet and the extremely long Savage throat but I moved it out as far as I felt safe and still having enough bullet in the neck to grip it decently. Should I experiment further, I was considering moving it farther away from the lands on the Savage. I know this sounds crazy but on the 243 Savage it seemed to shoot better with a little more jump. Or should I just give up on this particular bullet for the Savage. There is no use beating a dead horse and wasting money on bullets, powder, wear and tear on the brass and barrel if better results are not a realistic expectation.