Chronographs and Reloading

[yoda4x4]

So I'm just beginning the process of reloading for my 308 in that I've already acquired my dies, press, and the associated gear that I'll need. My question is whether or not it's important to own and use a chronograph when I'll be testing my loads. Thoughts?

David

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[yobuck]

It all depends.
That meaning upon the type of person you are.
Realize that untill very recently very few people owned chronagraphs.
Yet the world still got along very well.
If your main interest is group shooting, there is less reason for owning one.
But some will no doubt argue that, which again points out the differences among us.
We can even find our velocity without having one.
If the book says our load is producing 3000 fps for example, and one of the sites says that velocity needs X number of minits to reach 500 yards, why cant you just put up a target at 500 and shoot at it?
It is whatever it is as for minits, and that is what your velocity is also.
Realize now that i come from an era where very few people owned things like chronagraphs.
But frankly i did, as far back as the mid 70s ive owned them.
Do i think they have been helpfull?
Frankly, not very much.

[NF1E]

I have a couple of chronographs. A Pro-Chrono and a Lab-Radar. I use them both occasionally. Usually after I have determined what works for me the old fashioned way. Of coarse someone always has to ask about fps so out come the machines to confuse the world. I don't see where then have helped much in load development, but then , I am not a real teckie anyway. Don't own a smart phone or data driven load calculators.

[charlie b]

You can successfully reload without a chronograph. I made it a practice to never exceed book loads. Most of the time I would look at the book min and max, pick a 75% point and use that as max. Living in the SW the heat will cause many powders to generate more pressure so that was my 'buffer zone'.

If I were only interested in hunting loads I'd not have a chronograph. Just get a load that makes small enough groups. Shoot it at various ranges to see what the drop is and go with it.

I am a paper puncher. So, I like to see how small a group I can shoot. About 20 years ago I started using a chronograph. Today I use a Labradar (yes they are expensive) just because it is so easy to set up and use. It does help me to fine tune loads, but, you can do the same with careful workup of loads. Just change one thing at a time to see what the change is in accuracy.

[jpx2rk]

Some people believe nothing can be done without the fps/es/sd from the chrony, while others look at the target to determine the best load. Low ES & SD is good, but not always the most accurate load based on the target. I use a chrony after I get an accurate load I am happy with just to see what it does. I may continue the load development process, or call it good. Depends on my mood as I'm a paper puncher and varmint shooter, so going to the "extreme" is not necessary for my needs. You need to determine what your goal(s) and needs are.

[Downwindtracker2]

I've found a chrony to be invaluable . I load some semi wildcats like 338-06 or 6.5-06. I f you can find a max velocity, with a full case and you are under speed, you will also be under max pressure. When I first started to load a 264WM, the data dated from the late '50s. It was 50 years old by then. Again the chrony was my pressure guage. You would think something as common as 30-06 would not give any surprises, but I have P-17 BSA sporter that did. A 30-06 IMR4350 and 180gr loads are pretty standard. I shot one over my chrony and got a WTF velocity. I backed off the powder for that rifle! I used clearance powder for practice loads, the powder lot numbers had varing burn rates, not a lot but some. So I would slowly add powder until I got my magic velocity which would also give my magic clover leaf. Mine is a reconditioned Shooty Chrony , a $65 well spent. No recording just a pencil and paper.

[Balljoint]

My wife gave me a Chronograph for Christmas one year so as not too heart myself

[yobuck]

I've found a chrony to be invaluable . I load some semi wildcats like 338-06 or 6.5-06. I f you can find a max velocity, with a full case and you are under speed, you will also be under max pressure. When I first started to load a 264WM, the data dated from the late '50s. It was 50 years old by then. Again the chrony was my pressure guage. You would think something as common as 30-06 would not give any surprises, but I have P-17 BSA sporter that did. A 30-06 IMR4350 and 180gr loads are pretty standard. I shot one over my chrony and got a WTF velocity. I backed off the powder for that rifle! I used clearance powder for practice loads, the powder lot numbers had varing burn rates, not a lot but some. So I would slowly add powder until I got my magic velocity which would also give my magic clover leaf. Mine is a reconditioned Shooty Chrony , a $65 well spent. No recording just a pencil and paper.
Well loading for wildcat cartridges places things in a different perspective.
That because there is no load information for at least most of them.
The experienced gunsmiths who build them will as a rule give load information also, at least to a point.
Pressure is both friend and enemy, in that pressure is what causes velocity, not simply the powder charge.
We are looking for more velocity as a rule when we build wildcat cartridge guns, especially those used for long range hunting.
Today however there is less need for choosing to go wildcat due to there being so many more good cartridges, some of which had been only available as wildcats in past years.
The most important thing to remember however is to be paying more attention to what your gun is telling you as opposed to looking at chronograph information.
Even a slight change in the bolt lift after firing a round should be considered as a sign of high pressure.
Again, an experienced gunsmith will tell you what powders will give the best velocity, and which ones not to use.
But each gun is unique for various reasons, so those recommendations are not necessarily always absolutely correct for every gun.
So yes, for those who fool around with wildcat cartridges of any size, shooting over a chronograph while working up loads is usefull.
And the reason at least for many of us is that we are looking for velocity as a priority.
No need to waste time on a load that dosent have what were looking for.
Which is the only reason ive owned a chronagraph as long as i have.
No need to be shooting 5 or more rounds in order to get the information 1 round will tell you.

[daved20319]

I think the title of this thread should have been chronographs and shooting, not reloading. I first started using a chrono at a time when I didn't even own any firearms, all my guns were air powered. As my airgun addiction grew, I got into tuning and modifying them, which made the chrono a useful diagnostic tool. Then I moved up to PCP's, and as I got involved with higher end, higher powered rifles, again both tuning and modifying, along with a couple of builds, a chronograph went from bing a useful tool to nearly a necessity.

On the firearms end, I think it's a worthwhile investment even if you're not a reloader. Ever have factory ammo that just wouldn't group the way you think it should? I had some Magtech 5.56 that just refused to do better than 2 MOA, from a rifle that was capable of 1/2 MOA with a similar bullet. Finally ran some over the chrono, and the ES was around 100 FPS. No wonder it wouldn't group worth a damn :rolleyes:.

I've had several chronographs over the years, from a pretty basic Shooting Chrony to my latest, a Labradar. I wouldn't say they're indispensable, but the combo of Labradar data AND target date collected at the same time sure does streamline working up a new load. My goal right now is long range shooting, I'm hoping to get involved with some "local" F-class competition, as well as get out to 1K yards or more sometime. A low SD becomes really important at longer range, so I definitely want/need to know just how fast that bullet is going. But even for the shorter range stuff, or factory ammo like mentioned above, it's worth having, even if only used occasionally. As always, YMMV of course. Later.

Dave

[yobuck]

I think the title of this thread should have been chronographs and shooting, not reloading. I first started using a chrono at a time when I didn't even own any firearms, all my guns were air powered. As my airgun addiction grew, I got into tuning and modifying them, which made the chrono a useful diagnostic tool. Then I moved up to PCP's, and as I got involved with higher end, higher powered rifles, again both tuning and modifying, along with a couple of builds, a chronograph went from bing a useful tool to nearly a necessity.

On the firearms end, I think it's a worthwhile investment even if you're not a reloader. Ever have factory ammo that just wouldn't group the way you think it should? I had some Magtech 5.56 that just refused to do better than 2 MOA, from a rifle that was capable of 1/2 MOA with a similar bullet. Finally ran some over the chrono, and the ES was around 100 FPS. No wonder it wouldn't group worth a damn :rolleyes:.

I've had several chronographs over the years, from a pretty basic Shooting Chrony to my latest, a Labradar. I wouldn't say they're indispensable, but the combo of Labradar data AND target date collected at the same time sure does streamline working up a new load. My goal right now is long range shooting, I'm hoping to get involved with some "local" F-class competition, as well as get out to 1K yards or more sometime. A low SD becomes really important at longer range, so I definitely want/need to know just how fast that bullet is going. But even for the shorter range stuff, or factory ammo like mentioned above, it's worth having, even if only used occasionally. As always, YMMV of course. Later.

Dave
I wouldnt care to even attemp to contradict anything youve said.
But realize that terms like SD or spread devieation didnt even exist untill rather recently, but very good shooting has been taking place for a very long time.
Its only necessary for a load to shoot well enough to accomplish whatever it is the user wants to accomplish.
And that also includes shooting at the longer distances.

[daved20319]

I wouldnt care to even attemp to contradict anything youve said.
But realize that terms like SD or spread devieation didnt even exist untill rather recently, but very good shooting has been taking place for a very long time.
Its only necessary for a load to shoot well enough to accomplish whatever it is the user wants to accomplish.
And that also includes shooting at the longer distances.

Actually, it's standard deviation, and it's a statistics term that's been around, well, as long as statistics, I guess :cool:. But no argument, good shooting and shooters have been around far longer than the modern chronograph. That said, it's just another tool, and like any tool, is only as good or useful as the person using it. And for the gamers, it IS a vital piece of equipment, you have to know the velocity to figure out your power factor, and thus, what class you compete in. For me, a chronograph is an important tool in the tool box, I like KNOWING how fast that bullet is going, that's info that can be used in lots of ways. But like most things in life, what matters is what works for YOU, not some stranger on a gun forum :rolleyes:. Later.

Dave

[GaCop]

Well loading for wildcat cartridges places things in a different perspective.
That because there is no load information for at least most of them.
The experienced gunsmiths who build them will as a rule give load information also, at least to a point.
Pressure is both friend and enemy, in that pressure is what causes velocity, not simply the powder charge.
We are looking for more velocity as a rule when we build wildcat cartridge guns, especially those used for long range hunting.
Today however there is less need for choosing to go wildcat due to there being so many more good cartridges, some of which had been only available as wildcats in past years.
The most important thing to remember however is to be paying more attention to what your gun is telling you as opposed to looking at chronograph information.
Even a slight change in the bolt lift after firing a round should be considered as a sign of high pressure.
Again, an experienced gunsmith will tell you what powders will give the best velocity, and which ones not to use.
But each gun is unique for various reasons, so those recommendations are not necessarily always absolutely correct for every gun.
So yes, for those who fool around with wildcat cartridges of any size, shooting over a chronograph while working up loads is usefull.
And the reason at least for many of us is that we are looking for velocity as a priority.
No need to waste time on a load that dosent have what were looking for.
Which is the only reason ive owned a chronagraph as long as i have.
No need to be shooting 5 or more rounds in order to get the information 1 round will tell you.:thumb::thumb:

[GaCop]

Actually, it's standard deviation, and it's a statistics term that's been around, well, as long as statistics, I guess :cool:. But no argument, good shooting and shooters have been around far longer than the modern chronograph. That said, it's just another tool, and like any tool, is only as good or useful as the person using it. And for the gamers, it IS a vital piece of equipment, you have to know the velocity to figure out your power factor, and thus, what class you compete in. For me, a chronograph is an important tool in the tool box, I like KNOWING how fast that bullet is going, that's info that can be used in lots of ways. But like most things in life, what matters is what works for YOU, not some stranger on a gun forum :rolleyes:. Later.

Dave +1

[yobuck]

The most important thing a shooter can have, especially a long range shooter, is a convienant place to shoot.
We can be led to believe that all sorts of things are important in order to be successful.
But reality is that most of them arent, except for one, and that is trigger time.
Average Joe who owns a decent shooting gun will be surprised at how well he can do within a very short time.
Does that mean that average Joe with his decent shooting gun will win at a rifle match?
No it dosent, but the important thing to remember is that the vast majority of the very serious ones wont ever win one either. lol

[GaCop]

The most important thing a shooter can have, especially a long range shooter, is a convienant place to shoot.
We can be led to believe that all sorts of things are important in order to be successful.
But reality is that most of them arent, except for one, and that is trigger time.
Average Joe who owns a decent shooting gun will be surprised at how well he can do within a very short time.
Does that mean that average Joe with his decent shooting gun will win at a rifle match?
No it doesn't, but the important thing to remember is that the vast majority of the very serious ones wont ever win one either. lol +1, definitely agree with that. I'm fortunate to have a friend in Southwest Georgia who is an avid shooter and has a 1K range on his property with steel targets every 100 yards so I get to shoot long range as often as I care to by driving 2 hours. Good practice as his range crosses a valley and the cross winds can be really hairy at times especially since all the pine wood has been harvested and the range is wide open now. It's a good workout too walking up and down across the valley to repaint the steel.

[yobuck]

+1, definitely agree with that. I'm fortunate to have a friend in Southwest Georgia who is an avid shooter and has a 1K range on his property with steel targets every 100 yards so I get to shoot long range as often as I care to by driving 2 hours. Good practice as his range crosses a valley and the cross winds can be really hairy at times especially since all the pine wood has been harvested and the range is wide open now. It's a good workout too walking up and down across the valley to repaint the steel.

Havent you heard?
We have devices you hold in your hand that can figure all that wind stuff out for you.
Best to be standing with your back towards the wind when using them. lol

[charlie b]

Funny :)

Some days I really hate the wind. Swirls all around and no pattern to them. Frustrating.

We have some guys who shoot long range informal matches. There are days where they are happy if they hit a 3ft x 3ft backer at 1000yd.

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[Mr.Snerdly]

"the vast majority of the very serious ones wont ever win one either. lol"

I never thought of it that way. Makes me feel a little better.

[GaCop]

Haven't you heard?
We have devices you hold in your hand that can figure all that wind stuff out for you.
Best to be standing with your back towards the wind when using them. lol Yup, familiar with them but, wind flags are a lot cheaper for an old retired phart on a fixed income! I probably use my chronograph quite often testing handgun loads. Too many times to mention I have experienced quite different velocities with my revolvers and pistols than what the books indicate.

[GaCop]

Funny :)

Some days I really hate the wind. Swirls all around and no pattern to them. Frustrating.

We have some guys who shoot long range informal matches. There are days where they are happy if they hit a 3ft x 3ft backer at 1000yd.

Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk Amen to that Charlie!