Opinions on expected accuracy please...

[Flatlander.54]

I recently picked up a used Savage Model 10 .223 Rem. The only ammo I had available is the Remington 45 grain Hollow Points. Right now the gun is consistantly printing 1 1/2" groups, but I know it can do better. Is this about as good as I can expect from the Remington ammo? I know its not the best ammo but its all I have available right now.

I know some will ask so I will throw this out there...
The action screws are tight.
The tang area has been relieved for zero contact.
The sides of the barrel channel have also been relieved for zero contact. (just to be sure)
Bases are loctited.
Rings loctited.
Scope is a proven reliable scope.

I know the tupperware stocks are less than desireable and plan to replace it with a Bell and Carson Duramaxx when I can.

Thanks for any opinions.

[fatdaddy]

I have never had a 223 that shot the green box remingtons well. If you don't reload, try some Black hills ammo. 55 gr or heavier if you can find any. You'll be hard pressed to find better off the shelf ammo. With the right loads, I would almost bet your rifle will shoot under .5"... Bill

[Captain Finlander]

The Savage 10 has a fast 1 in 9 twist and the 45 grainers are best shot out of a 1 in 14 or 1 in 12 twist. You will have better success with bullets 55 grains or larger.

[Flatlander.54]

Yeah thats something I forgot to ponder in my original post as to wether or not the 45 grainers might be a little too light for the 1:9 twist rate. I eventually plan to handload for this rifle, I just need to get set up for it...fell under some hard times last year and sold all my reloading stuff...like an idiot.
The main reason I got the Rem. 45 grain HP's is cause they were cheap for a case of them and I would have brass to reload later. Probably should have picked up some premium ammo as well but I was pretty much broke after buying the rifle and case of cheap Remington ammo.

[1Shot]

..+1 on the Black Hills..For factory fodder...I've shot holes with 40's, 50's, 55's, 60's, 69's...the 1/9 doesn't know the differance...No need to change the tupperware unless you're shooting with a bipod...But I do favor the VLP's...Groups have alot more to do with the trigger puller...

[MikeCTX]

+1 on what 1shot said...have been able to shoot some .5 groups with Hornady 55gr SP and 55gr Vmax HSM for cheap ammo with model 12 VLP (1:7 twist). Prefers handloads, but for range funthe Hornady and HSM where fine, need to pick up some BlackHills to shoot with, since almost out of the HSM and they don't offer the 55's anylonger.

[wbm]

The only reason I ever shot the Remington 45g bullets was when they were on sale at Wal-Mart and that was just for the brass. They have to be some of the worst stuff I ever shot!

[dolomite_supafly]

I have also had great luck with Ultramax 55 grain SP's. Out of my Stevens 200 in 223 I was getting groups that were in the 3/4" range at 100 yards.

As everyone else has said the green box Remington rounds have never shot very well out of most firearms I own in 223. I have shot 40 grain V-maxes in groups that were sub 1/2" but they were handloads, not factory loads. 45 grain bullets are not too light for a 9 twist barrel, they are not the optimum weight but they can shoot well if you find a load that your rifle likes.

The best factory ammo I have tried has been Blackhills. It was the 69 SMK loading.

Dolomite

[Flatlander.54]

The only reason I ever shot the Remington 45g bullets was when they were on sale at Wal-Mart and that was just for the brass. They have to be some of the worst stuff I ever shot!


Yeah, pretty much the same reason I picked this case up...for the brass. Was just curious how others found the accurcy from them. Im not really dissapointed with them cause I really didnt expect them to do much better than what they are printing, which is still plenty accurate enough for Coyotes, especially in my area where shots are going to be under 150 yards more often than not.

[beradon]

45 Gr bullets are much to lite for your fast twist model 10. My 9 twist rifles shoot best with 69 or 75 Gr bullets

[fatdaddy]

I respectfully disagree that 45 gr are to light. As Dolomite and 1shot have said, I too load 100's of 40gr vmax for pdog shooting. These shoot well in all 4 of the 223's we use, all with 1-9 twist. I also use the same bullet for a 1-8 twist 22-250 AI, it too shoots into .5" if I do my part. A 1-9 twist shoots a longer heavy bullet well, that does not mean it wont shoot a light one well too. Bill

[dolomite_supafly]

I fired several sub 1/2" groups today using 40 grain V-Maxes out of a 26" 7 twist barrel. The highest velocity was an average velocity of 3858 fps and at that velocity they did not fly apart. They also shot the smallest group of the day at that velocity.

The 53 grain Sierra match (Item #1400) bullets didn't fair so well. Once I got them over 3400 fps they would "poof" into a cloud of gray dust at about 35 yards. At 3300 fps they seemed to stay together but accuracy wasn't that great.

Dolomite

[GaCop]

I've been getting great accuracy with the 52 grain SMK in my 1 in 8 twist barrel. I never thought a bullet that light would shoot well in that faster twist. Ya learn somethin every day.

[Captain Finlander]

Aside from the potential stability issues associated with bullet length and twist there is chamber pressure and velocity. The slower twists are less restrictive allowing for a greater powder charge w/o exceeding chamber pressures. This equates to greater velocity obtainable. Yes the 1 i 9 twist guns can shoot 45 grainers but at a higher pressure limiting the load density and slower burning powders.

[racinready300ex]

I've been fighting with my 223 to get the best accuarcy out of it I can. I use 68 - 75 grain Hornady Match. Shoots 1/2" at 100, and several 5 shot groups with 4 shots in the 5" range and the 1 shot opening it up to 8" or so. That's at 600 yards.

[elgregoblanko]

The remington corelocke is a killer round, but a little pricey if you're reloading.

I shoot 40grain nosler ballistic tips w/ 26.5 grains of h335,, but only out of my bolt action, and only during the summer months. that loadout is flat-out devistating on coyotes, point of aim up to 400 yds,, but tears the dog in half like Lucifer himself did the deed.

During the colder months i switch to 52 grain sierra hollow points,, and bring back the charge to 23.3 grains of h335. That loadout will cycle through my mini 14,, and is dead on out to 350yds through my bolt action.
I love the 52grain bullet loadout. it kicks so little through my bolt action (with a medium varmater barrel) that Yotes die without me loosing them in the scope ;D The bullet hole is little going in,, and very little--if at all--going out.

[dolomite_supafly]

I load 40 grain V-Max bullets to 3858 fps with 29 grains of H335 and I am getting roughly 20" of drop at 400 yards.

Given you are loading them with 26.5 grains of H335 I know your drop is not going to be more. I don't doubt that they are accurate or devistating on coyotes but saying "point of aim up to 400 yards" is a bit of a stretch.

Maybe you are good at the hold over but there is no way it is "point of aim to 400 yards".

Dolomite

[elgregoblanko]

depending on the country i'm in, brushy or open to 500yds, 400yds is the most i'll shoot a yote at. i am holding high at 100 for stands up to 250 yds, and make a finite adjustment in elevation for stands up to 400,,,but a very small one,,i guess a 26'' barrel helps too.

[hailstone]

Interesting thread about ballistics, barrel twist rates and bullet weights. Seems like one gains new knowledge every day. I've had a desire too shoot the 40 grain bullets in my 223's because its the bullet weight used in my 22 Hornets. Would make things easier if both could use the same bullet weight. However too date nothing has worked extremely well. My 1-9" twist bolt actions and ARs will shoot the 40 grainers but accuracy is at best only marginally acceptable. All rifles I have chambered in 223 whether 1-9" or 1-12" or 1-14" twist rate will shoot the 50, 52 and 55 grain bullets into groups covered with a dime with many bug holes as some like to say. When using the 40 grain bullets group size will open up regardless of the rifle/twist rate shot. How much depends but generally nickel size too half dollar size.

I've tried different powders and have found best accuracy with a powder not usually associated with the 223. H335, H322, VV130, VV133, BL-C(2), AA2230, AA2520, Benchmark, Varget and WW748 powders have been tried with varying degrees of accuracy. Haven't tried any of the Reloader series powders nor several Accurate powders yet but don't expect much different results.

After all the time and effort expended on this venture I finally got smart buying four commerical loaded 40 grain offerings. We'll try these for accuracy too see if any improvements can be made in accuracy. My suspessions are that that bullet weight will never be as accurate in the 223 despite barrel twist rates or powder used. Dolomite I'll try your loading as I never used that heavy a charge weight although the Sierra manual lists it.

[dolomite_supafly]

These were shot using a 26" 7 twist barrel. The gun is a proven performer using 69 SMK's and has always shot those under 1/2 MOA out to 400 yards.

I was shooting groups to find the most accurate load using H335 and 40 grain V-maxes. I started out with 27.4 grains and worked up to 29 grains. There was another group that was similarly sized but I have to dig out the targets to check again. I figured if the faster one shot as good as the slower one I may as well shoo the faster loading.

The 53 grain Sierra's were miserable from the get go. I started at 26.3 and went to 27.4 for the charge but actually quit shooting them after 26.7 grains because the bullets were flying apart. I had a guy who shoots competitions spotting for me and all he seen was a gray poof at 35 yards.

I need to tear down the rest of the ammo because they are too hot for my AR. It has a 9 twist barrel so it would have shot them just fine but I tend to shoot pretty sedate handlaods out of it.

I tend to be a bit critical of over stabilizing bullets unless their design makes them more likely to disrupt. The military uses 7 twsit barrels and heavy bullets to try to make the AR15 a long range weapon. In the process they have slowed down the velocity and increased the twist rates. All this has done is cause the bullets to punch right through targets without tumbling or disrupting, especailly at the longer ranges that they are encountering over there. This happens because the bullet design doesn't lend well to falling apart upon impact and the overstabilization doesn't lend itself to tumbling. And when the velocity drops it tends to exacerbate these problems. When I was over there I would try to use the rifle with the longest barrel I could find, mostly 16" guns because I knew that the 10.5" guns are going to make nice, neat little holes in anything beyond 50 yards.

Here is a good read on performce of the 5.56 and twist:
http://stevespages.com/pdf/5_56mm_military_info.pdf
And penetration based on velocity:
http://stevespages.com/jpg/bestbullet.jpg
They do not work if hot linked.

Kind of got off on a tangent, sorry but still some intersting stuff on how twist and velocity affects bullet performance. I try to use the slowest twist I can for a given bullet to help the bullet tumble upon impact even if the bullet doesn't disrupt. The 7 twist barrel is my first.

Dolomite