Shotgun wads

[pheasant16]

Trying to get access to a shotgunning board, but think no administrator so no access. :(
Will try here. :)

Finally hit the end of Remington SP16 wads. What I thought was a case turned out to be hulls, so now I'm in a pinch.

This wad is for a tapered hull like AA or super old RP compression formed hulls.
It has a small gas seal, (0.634) and creates flubs when used in a straight walled hull like the old Federal purples or todays cheddite or fiocchi.
Way I got around this was to put an overpowder card wad below the SP16. Then added the 1 1/8oz lead shot.

After the panic wore off, finding out this has been discontinued, and no scrounging I've done can find any, time to create a new load
1. Find a new recipe for straight walled hulls with an available wad with bigger gas seal to eliminate the card wad. (creates issue with loads of obsolete powder to use up)
2. Have lots of WW16AA wads that have a smaller gas seal(0.624) than the SP 16's I would like to use up.

My thinking is: I ASSUME the pressure is being largely determined by the overpowder card wad, and the SP16 is acting mostly as a shot cup could I safely sub out the AA16 (remembering it has a smaller gas seal than SP16) and if height is okay and crimp is fine.

Had it drilled in my head 40 years ago you NEVER sub components so above still give me an uneasy feeling. I want to enjoy retirement so don't want to risk injury, and yet am old enough to be influenced by parents who grew up in the Depression so waste is hard to fathom also.

Your thoughts please.

Mark

[Slowpoke Slim]

Do you have a better specific list of what components you're trying to use?

Hull?
You did list the specific wad.
Powder(s)?
Primer(s)?

It's been a long time since I loaded any 16 ga stuff, but I'll look around and see what I have for load recipes.

I didn't know Remington dropped the SP16 wad. Hopefully they bring it back when the "new" version of the company gets up and running.

[pheasant16]

guess the reason I left off specifics is my question was about the card wad being the factor for pressure.

I have a replacement load ready to go, just trying to avert dumping what I have available.

[Slowpoke Slim]

Look I get it.

But if you don't tell me what you have "available" for components, I can't look up anything in any of my old manuals to see if we can put a combo together, based on what you have on hand.

I assumed that was what you were looking for? That, or please restate in a different way, with a different set of words, with more effort on being descriptive, on what you are looking for help on.

Just based on memory alone, there's not going to be a whole lot of choices anyway, if you're looking for a 1 and 1/8 oz. load in 16 ga. But if I don't know what it is that you have sitting there, waiting to be used, then I can't even narrow down the search to anything useful for you, and your specific component stockpile. All I know is you have a 16 ga, and you have some WAA16 wads, that I assume are real Winchester, and not Claybuster replacements, and you have some overpowder card wads that you may or may not need to use, based on the rest of the components you have on hand.

[pheasant16]

Only question is: Using a different wad with a gas seal smaller than an SP 16 sitting on top of the overpowder card wad should not change the pressure of the shell as the pressure is being determined by the card wad not the plastic wad, which acts solely as a shot cup in my thinking.

If that is not correct reasoning, I have a new load with velocity similar properties already ready to go. This one has a modern wad with a gas seal of .662 or so, so card wad will not be used.
Don't need help with a new load. Just like to use up the old AA16 wads with current recipe.

[charlie b]

I sub out a lot of stuff when loading for shotguns. Even easier when I am using brass cases for the 24ga :) But, I am not target shooting or looking for a heavy waterfowl load.

I'd just use the cards for the shot cups and keep loading. If you need some extra height you can always get some fiber wads to add in above the card. I'd look at Buffalo Arms Co for what you want.

[Stumpkiller]

If you don't know about Ballistic Products (Ballisticproducts.com) you should. They might be able to suggest an alternative.

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Remington-SP16-1-1_8oz-wad/productinfo/030SP16/

I'm not much help otherwise as my shotgunning is with a 16 bore flintlock made for me by Mike Brooks that uses loose blackpowder, fiber wads and cards. Happily I don't fowl for food. ;-)

[pheasant16]

Merry Christmas and Thank you
I appreciate the feedback.
Ballistic Products and Precision Reloading are 2 of my go businesses, Precision offers a service where you send them 5 shells and they will tell you pressure, velocity etc for 25 bucks.
Charlie stating he subs components frequently makes me feel better about using the Winchester wads up. I've subbed primers and cases without concern but powders and wads have always been hands off to me. Course with collectors around; the compression formed hulls and AA wads would make me more money than Tesla has this year. LOL

[Slowpoke Slim]

Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas,

Back to pheasant16...

As far as I know, just taking a load recipe that uses a hull/wad/ of "X" variable, and changing nothing but adding an overpowder card to the exact same load, will increase pressure in that load. You have reduced the powder area under the shot cup. So, I'm still not sure if I'm following what you're looking for help on. But, If you only inserted a card wad into and existing load that was listed/created without one, then yes, you may have a pressure problem. I say "may" because I don't know if your existing (pre-wad) load had any "room" in it for more pressure. But with a 1 1/8 oz load, I'm guessing it was already up there near "max" anyway, to get you decent shot velocity down range. I would personally never take an existing load, without an overpowder wad, and just add one with no other changes. But as I said, I'm still not sure if this is what you are referring to.

So...

One last attempt here before I surrender and move on, wishing you good luck on your journey.

In my Lyman shotshell reloading manual, which is the one I refer to first when looking for loads with various components to try, I have found that for several of the "modern" plastic formed shotshells, they list several loads both with and without using an over powder card and using the WAA16 wad that you are trying to use up. I am assuming that the main difference on using the card over the powder in these loads, that are listed in this manual, is that some of the primer/powder combos that they list develop enough pressure "quick" enough to not need the card wad, and some use a slow enough powder to need the help of the card wad to seal the gas pressure behind it. They never list the same powder and primer for use both with and without a card wad with the same shot wad (in this case, the WAA16 wad).

So I have found several loads, listed for each type of "modern" plastic formed shotshells, that do show a listing for your WAA16 wad, and no card wad (and several that DO). But guess what? Without knowing if you have their stated powder, or primer, or even the correct hull on hand, then how would I have known if that load recipe would do you any good?

I don't have a way to scan the book pages and send them to you. I also don't really intend to type out load recipes from 3 full pages worth of load charts by hand, just in case one of those "may" contain the components you have on hand by random universal chance. It would be much easier to assist you if I knew what components you were trying to work with here (which is I believe, what I asked you originally?).

I must say you have made trying to help you out rather tiring.

Good luck and Godspeed.

[pheasant16]

Slowpoke you are indeed a truly kind hearted soul. You win. LOL!
I use Herco powder, about 24gr a cheddite, fiocchi, multihull, or imperial which are all straight walled hulls. Used to use Federal purples for field use (straight wall, paper base hull) with the SP16's which created squib loads. Gentleman at the trap club told me about the overpowder card trick when not using a AA compression formed hull (for this wad)which I used for trap, didn't waste them hunting. Primers are Federal 209's when reloading above mentioned hulls. If it's a new hull reckon it's a cheddite, fiocchi, or whatever they had on hand. I've never gotten too concerned about swapping hulls or primers. 1 1/8oz lead shot.
The new wad I would use has a gas seal of .665 so no card wad would be needed (or used). (If I choose not to do the following)
The SP 16 gas seal is .634. The AA16 is .624.
The recipe I've used for nearly 40 years is supposed to replicate a factory Federal 3 1/4 DR load. I can't cite a reference for it as a flood 10 years ago made lots of papers, books and other goods fodder for the landfill.
I have Lyman 1, 2 and 3rd edition, along with manuals from Ballistic products so no lack of reference material, so if what you are finding is in one of them, cite edition and page and no need to fax, email etc.

The charge weight isn't changing, the shot weight isn't changing, the plastic wad is only sitting atop the sealed powder. The plastic supports under the shot cup crush as pressure is applied for the final crimp, so shouldn't be any additional pressure on the card wad, so pressure should remain constant. That is my reasoning, and wanting to know if others concur.

[pheasant16]

Even better yet: found a Winchester 15th edition reloading manual with recipes for AA16 wads that's close.