low velocity numbers

[scope eye]

Hi I just can't figure out why my velocity numbers are allways alot lower than they should be according to the reloading data, for example 223 rem 28gr varget 40 gr vmax 3100 fps 27 gr varget 50 sierra's 3000 fps, this is the kicker white box bulk 55gr 3400fps!!! this goes for all my loads all the way up to 300 win mag and every thing in between, the groupings are fine but the low numbers baffle me they are all several hundred fps down from factory loaded rounds. all my rifles are stevens 200 with 22 inch barrels except the 300 win with a 24 inch tube.
thanks Dean

[tammons]

Maybe your chronograph is off.

[scope eye]

I thought of that but that does not explain why the factory loads are always higher and close to what the factory box says, and from another post i checked out with 22 rim fire and from sub sonic all the way to stingers it's close to what they advertise. go figure.

[tammons]

What reloading data are you using ??

[scope eye]

Varget is favorite so right from hogdon's web sight. I also use ammo guide interactive there's even load data right on the container.
thanks Dean

[tammons]

Maybe too you just have a bad batch of varget.

I was just running some 458 WM loads with an no longer made bullet.
Should have returned about 1750-1800 according to quickload,
but I chronographed it at 1500 fps.

Although quickload is wrong a lot, I did not believe it missed that much and I was really stumped and kept fiddling around with it until I finally figured out that the freebore was so long that the pressure was dropping way off.
If I run quickload as if the OAL bullet was jammed and with that much additional space in the cartridge then it returned 1500 fps.

That said I do think my chronograph is about 25-50 fps slow.

So variations in build and whatnot can have surprising results.

As far as your loads - I load the 223 also with a 52 gr amax over 26.5 gr of either Varget or H4895 and chronographed 3200 fps with a minimal spread with H4895, so something is not right with your setup. Varget was close to the same.

The 52 gr amax over 27 gr of varget shot 1/4" groups out of my old 26" barreled VLP 7 twist, but it was a bit hot for summer so I backed off. I never chronographed that load out of that barrel.

If you are trying to max out a 40 gr bullet in 223 there are better powders than varget.
Most factory loads can not be matched by handload normal powders.
H322 or H335 would probably be better.

What is your 300 WM load that is slow ??
Any others ??

Edit, what kind of scale are you using ??

[guhunter]

Maybe 28 grains on your scale is not actually 28 grains....

[tammons]

That's what I was thinking as a possibility too

Fill up a 223 case with h20 and weigh it.
The water should weigh about 28.8 gr

A 300 WM winchester case should hold about 93.8 gr of h20.

[scope eye]

Thanks for the replies it's rcbs 505 I don't think it's off because the bullets always weigh dead on what it says on the box, and a full case of varget is still a full case. I know there is a better powders for every specific application but varget seems to cover them all, just like my hand guns all get a dose of UNIQUE. besides Im fiscally challenged right now so I can't have a dozen differant powders lying around until I need that specific one. they only thing I can think of is that the chrony gets screwy over 3000 fps I don't have another one to compare to I am they only I know that has one locally.

[tammons]

I have a 505 too and nothing wrong with it,
so my guess is back to bad powder or a bad chrony.

How close are you to your chrony when you test your loads ??

You don't need a dozen different rifle powders, just a few.
I went the dozen different powder route and its a PIA.
Originally I started out like you with just varget then switched to H4895
because I think its more versatile.
Later I got into the powder race, but now I think mostly you need just
3. One slowish, one medium versatile, one fast.

Now I just have 3 I like the best and use the most and those are.

H4895 for a general all around powder I can download safely to 60%.

RL17 for heavy bullets like in 308, 30-06, 7mm-08 and its also great in 243 and
overbores like 300 WM etc. In general you get about 100 fps extra.

RL7 fast powder for 223 light bullets, 6.8 spc and large bores.

All that said, Alliant is coming out with 3 new rifle powders that will give roughly
150+ fps over any normal powder. 2000lr is the middle of the road rifle powder.
Also coming out with a new pistol powder.

[scope eye]

I think I may have found they answer, my rifles are steven's 200 with 22 inch barrels I ran some of my loads threw a 223 remy with 26 inch tube, a 22-250 savage vlp and a custom 308 with a 27 inch bull barrel, and all the numbers were up 200 - 300 fps I was surprised it made that much difference.

[dolomite_supafly]

I can say that Varget doesn't really reach any of the velocity numbers listed for my 223 on Hogdon's sight. Also, the numbers listed are generally for ideal conditions with a VERY long barrel. I have yet to reach any of their numbers using their recipes in any of my guns, regardless of caliber. Varget comes into its own hith heavier bullets.

For me the difference between a 26" and a 16" barrel is right at 500 FPS with all else being equal when using 40 grain vmaxes. Your 22" barrel might be the cause for the low numbers. My numbers aren't as low as yours but I am running a 26" tube also.

One more thing, primers make a huge difference as well. When I switched from CCI 400's to Wolf Small Rifle Magnums I gained 200 fps and dropped my SD in half.

I recently started testing H335 for use with the lighter bullets because I wasn't happy with my numbers either when using Varget and lightweight bullets.

Dolomite

[Captain Finlander]

That's what I was thinking as a possibility too

Fill up a 223 case with h20 and weigh it.
The water should weigh about 28.8 gr

A 300 WM winchester case should hold about 93.8 gr of h20.




Water and powder do not have the same specific weight what you mean to say is volume. Available space inside the case.

[tammons]

The standard for measuring Case capacity is the weight of water measured in grains of H20.

[scope eye]

Thanks for they input everyone, so It looks like I am asking to much from my staple VARGET to cover the full gamete, so if I went to carrying two powders what would be recomended or do I need at least three. I have one of every steven's model 223 to 300win mag and everything in between so that's quite the spread.

[tammons]

I think you need 3 as I mentioned above.
These are mostly powders I have used that work, but there are others.

Varget or H4895 are the best middle powder IMO.

I like H4895 because you can safely download it to 60% of max.
It was also the powder developed for the military for the 30-06 so it has some military heritage.

As far as varget in the 223 you just cant get enough powder in the case to get the most out of it with light bullets.
It still works, just wont max them out. You need a smaller/faster extruded or ball powder that you can get more in the case

Something in the H322, H335 area would be good or H4198 for very light bullets. Also reloader 7 is a good powder, but I have never used it with 223.

That said IMO the really fast powders like H4198 can be touchy when playing around with heavier bullets.
A fast powder like H335 or H322 or RL7 is best for rounds like 223 with light bullets, 6.8 spc with light bullets, most straight walled cases with moderate weight bullets like 450 BM, 45-70, 458 winmag etc. I was surprised to read that one African guides best 500 grain loads were with H335. H4198 is the powder for 30BR with a 115 gr bullet.

I am not really sure what the most versatile fast rifle powder is, but probably H335 or RL7. Hopefully others will pipe in.

For over bores even with light bullets like say a 243/80 gr, 270 weatherby magnum, 300 wm and with normal calibers with heavy bullets
like 30-06 or 308 etc with 200-220 gr bullets you want a bit slower powder. Probably the most versatile is H4350 or IMR4350.

For instance with 3 powders, just using the 308 as an example....

You can load 110 gr vmax at full tilt with a fast powder like H335 or RL7.
You can down load that same bullet or a 130 gr bullet to youth loads like 2000-2500 fps or less safely with H4895
and have a recoil about like a 243.

You can load a 220 gr roundnose bullet over H4350, RL17, RL19 to max out that load, or reduce load it with H4895
to 1500 fps if you just want a lumbering brush round.

For a magnum or an overbore with a very heavy bullet, like a 300WM with a 220 gr or 250 gr bullet
to max it out you would probably want an even slower powder like RL22 or a similar burn rate H powder
although H4350 would still work.

I stated my current fav powders above as being RL7, H4895, RL17.
RL17 has a slow pressure curve and seems to act like a slower powder, and you can get some
really good velocity numbers out of it with heavy bullets up to a point. It also works very good in overbores.
My latest 243 80 gr TTSX load is with RL17.