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CFJunkie
11-13-2020, 01:56 PM
After three posting different threads documenting my results with Savage 12 FV in .223, I thought it might be good to make it easy for those who have been following those results to get a summary of all the data by comparing results with different bullets, powders, stocks, scopes & primers.

Our range in Northern Virginia reopened in May and I have been busy filling in for some of the RSOs who declared themselves vulnerable. However, I did get a chance to shoot a reasonable number of rounds with the 12 FV .223 in the Oryx stock.
Some of you have followed my threads for the 12 FV .223 on the Ammunition and Reloading forum.

For the new 12 FV rifle with the factory stock, https://www.savageshooters.com/showthread.php?63914-First-results-with-new-12-FV-223
For the results after the change to the Oryx stock on the 119-Series Bolt-Action forum.

https://www.savageshooters.com/showthread.php?64623-Documented-results-from-replacing-the-12-FV-factory-stock-with-an-Oryx-Chassis (https://www.savageshooters.com/showthread.php?64623-Documented-results-from-replacing-the-12-FV-factory-stock-with-an-Oryx-Chassis/page3)
Some of you also may have followed my thread on shooting 77 grain bullets in this 1:9 twist 12 FV .223.

https://www.savageshooters.com/showthread.php?64814-Will-77-grain-bullets-stabilize-in-a-1-9-twist-barrel
(https://www.savageshooters.com/showthread.php?64814-Will-77-grain-bullets-stabilize-in-a-1-9-twist-barrel)
Over the last few months, I have been using Vihta Vuori N140 powder with the heavier bullets, mostly Sierra 69 and 77 grain SMKs and TMKs. I have lots of N140 powder and am trying to save some of the other powders until they become available again.

The types of records that I keep are show in data from the last session that I shot with the 12 FV .223
with the Oryx stock on Nov. 6, 2020 compared to my long-term average of 0.294 with all combinations of bullets, powders, stocks, scopes, and primers.
7564

Unfortunately, if I attempted to provide as detailed a set of results for all the groups shot since the range reopened, there would be a lot of sessions to report on.
But I have kept the same type of records for each session and I think I have compiled data that might give you all some helpful information.

I put together a comparison of the long-term results with each configuration by stock, by scope and by primers for the 69 and 77 grain Sierras bullets, the most accurate bullets in this rifle.
7565

As you know, I have shot the 12 FV .223 with the factory stock and the Oryx stock with a Sightron II 36X scope and had just gotten a good deal on a Leupold 45x45mm Competition scope and mounted it on the Oryx chassis. My lack of practice right after the reopening might have skewed the results with the new Leupold a bit. I will have to wait to see if the slight drop in accuracy remains when the samples get larger.
I gathered data on 22 powder-bullet combinations by bullet since I started shooting the 12 FV .223 and the chart shows which powder bullet combinations worked the best on average and what the best load and velocity was. All the loads listed used Lapua brass.

5 Rnd Groups - Savage 12 FV .223 - Hand Loads By Average
# Grps --Powder -Bullet --------------------------Wgt AvG. Best Load Velocity Rank
205 ---- IMR4166 Sierra Tipped Match King #7177 77 0.279 0.240 -----2541 ---1
36 ------ N140 ---Sierra Match King # 9377 -------77 0.280 0.242 ---- 2592 ---2
36------- N140 ---Sierra Tipped Match King #7177 77 0.286 0.263 ---- 2592 ---3
11 ------ H4895 --Berger VLD #22418 ------------70 0.286 0.275 ---- 3039 ---4
96 ----- IMR4166 -Sierra Tipped Match King #7169 69 0.287 0.239 ---- 2581 ---5
31 ------N140 ----Sierra Tipped Match King #7169 69 0.289 0.280 ---- 2645 ---6
89----- IMR4166 Sierra Match King # 1380 -------- 69 0.292 0.248---- 2594 ---7
28 ------ N140 ---Sierra Match King # 1380 --------69 0.295 0.263---- 2654 ---8
77 ----- IMR4166 Sierra Match King # 9377 -------- 77 0.297 0.240---- 2544 ---9
6 ------ H4895 -- Sierra Tipped Match King #7169 --69 0.312 0.301---- 2669 -- 10
4 -------N133 ----Hornady ELD-M # 22491 -------- 52 0.333 0.333 --- 3094 ---11
3 ------ N133 --- Sierra Match King BHTP#1410 --- 52 0.343 0.343 ---- 3105---12
4 ------ N133 --- Berger FB #22410 --------------- 55 0.343 0.343-----3079---13
4 ------ N133 --- Hornady V-Max # 22265---------- 53 0.363 0.363---- 3070---14
2 ------ N133 --- Nosler CC #53335-----------------52 0.367 0.367---- 3110---15
4 ------ N133 --- Sierra Match King FB #1400------- 53 0.389 0.384---- 3101---16
3 ------ N133 --- Berger Varmint FB # 22406 ------- 50 0.390 0.390---- 3121---17
2 ----- IMR4166 -Nosler CC #17101 -----------------69 0.403 0.403---- 2953---18
2 ------ N133 --- Berger FB #22408 ---------------- 52 0.466 0.466---- 3106---19
1 ----- IMR4166 -Sierra Tipped Match King #7160 ---60 0.487 0.487---- 3008---20
7 ----- IMR4166 -Berger VLD #22418 ---------------70 0.509 0.291---- 2581--- 21
2 ----- IMR4166 -Hornady Match #2278 ------------ 68 0.653 0.653---- 2947--- 22
653 ---Total -------------------------------------------- 0.294

The 77 and 69 grain Sierras hold 9 of the top 10 powder-bullet combinations.

From this data, I think you can get a reasonable idea of what combinations worked best.
However, I caution you that these results are for a particular rifle barrel of 26-inch length and specific chamber.
Your rifle might not exhibit the same preferences.
I averaged all the results for each powder bullet-combination for each bullet without regard for seating depth, velocity, etc.
However, I did include the best load average and its velocity to give you all some idea of what worked the best for me with each powder-bullet combination.
The overall average for 5-round groups since the inception is just under 0.3 inches for 653 groups, but 9 powder-bullet combinations of the best performers out of the 22 different combinations account for 609 of the groups (93.3%).
I admit that I have concentrated on the powders and bullets that provided the best results.
Once I got the initial indication, I have avoided the combinations that did not measure up and did not waste time and resources on looking for a miracle.

Analysis of the top loads for the 77 and 69 grain Sierra bullets provides a slightly different look.
-------------------Top 10 ------------------ Top 25 -------------All Loads
-------------------Weight Avg. ---# Grps -- Avg. # Grps -Avg. ---# Grps
Sierra TMK # 7177-- 77 --- 0.227 ---21 --- 0.237 -- 45 -- 0.279--- 229
Sierra SMK # 9377-- 77 --- 0.235 ---16 ---0.243 -- 29 --0.289 ----105
Sierra TMK # 7169-- 69 ---0.239 ---- 3 --- 0.246--- 11 -- 0.288--- 127
Sierra SMK # 1380-- 69 --------------------0.251--- 11 -- 0.292--- 104

The Sierra 69 SMK and TMKs and the 77 SMKs and TMKs have performed the best and, as you can see, I have sent a lot of them down range.
Note that the TMKs performed slightly better than the SMKs in both the 77 and 69 grain bullets.
Also note that the 77 grain bullets perform slightly better than the 69 grain bullets on average.
The statistical sample of all 77 and 69 grain loads is large enough to make that conclusion.

I even have compiled results based upon jump.
12 FV .223
Jump ----------- Avg--- Median St Dev # Grps Rank
0.000 to 0.009-- 0.292-- 0.285 0.058 -- 84------4
0.010 to 0.019-- 0.278-- 0.271 0.053-- 173----- 1
0.020 to 0.029-- 0.292-- 0.282 0.058 -- 181---- 3
0.030 to 0.039-- 0.310-- 0.294 0.054 --- 27----- 7
0.040 to 0.049-- 0.335-- 0.302 0.119 --- 35----- 9
0.050 to 0.059-- 0.306-- 0.292 0.067 --- 11----- 5
0.060 to 0.069-- 0.285-- 0.284 0.050 ---- 8----- 2
0.070 to 0.079-- 0.354-- 0.292 0.170 ---- 9---- 10
0.080 to 0.089-- 0.307-- 0.295 0.098 ---- 7----- 6
0.090 to 0.099-- 0.331-- 0.313 0.090 ---- 7----- 8

There is a definite positive result for the 0.010 to 0.019 jump in this sample.
The difference between the averages for the 0.020 to 0.029 and 0.000 to 0.009 samples is 0.0004.
Although it shows as the second-best jump, the 0.060 to 0.069 sample is too small, in my opinion, to make any conclusion about why it is in second place.
An 8-group average could easily be influenced by a single outstanding group that may have been an anomaly.

Since my wife died in December, it took me 2 months to begin shooting again and no sooner did I begin shooting, the pandemic hit, and our range was closed early in March.
Even after the range reopened, I have not been shooting as much but the results do not show much of the expected deterioration that comes with the reduced range time.
The results shown below include only the 69 and 77 grain bullets because I have been shooting them almost exclusively since March-2019.
Since the range reopened, I have only been shooting about 57% of the number of rounds a month that I was shooting pre-pandemic.
There is not a lot difference in the average group size, but my groups were larger in the first months after the range reopened so, to me, range time or lack of it, does effect accuracy.
The data shows that I have managed to get most of my consistency back over the most recent 4 months even though I have been shooting only 57% of the groups per month.

12 FV .223 # Months Grps /Month Avg Group # Groups
Pre COVID ----12 ----69.1 ---------0.281------- 829
Post Reopening 7 ----39.3 ---------0.282------- 275
-------------Change -43.1% ------- 0.5%

charlie b
11-13-2020, 05:10 PM
Thanks for all that. I sometimes go back and look at some of your results just for reference and this makes it even easier.

hamiltonkiler
11-13-2020, 05:18 PM
Great work as always.
Very dedicated and detailed.
Thank you
Do you have any chronograph numbers?
I would like to know the difference in drop at 500-600yds between the 69gn bullets and the 77gn bullets
I’m currently getting 53” of drop from zero at 500yds 77gnsmk
Roughly 10.25 MOA

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charlie b
11-13-2020, 09:17 PM
10MOA is what my ballistics program shows for 500yd from 100yd zero (77smk at 2800fps, measured). The same program shows 9.74MOA for the 69gn SMK (2950fps, measured). Velocity at 500yd is 1914 for the 69gn and 1972fps for the 77gn. Mine takes 14MOA for 600yd (77gn). Don't remember shooting it at 500yd and don't remember what the actual numbers were for the 69gn.

Shooting at those ranges I will have to add or subtract quite a bit for winds.

JW
11-14-2020, 06:37 AM
Thank you for sharing your data. Very informative and complete. I know there is a lot of time involved in keeping such detailed results.
I also want to say I'm sorry for the passing of your wife last year. I encourage you to keep on keeping on.
Jack

PhilC
11-14-2020, 11:18 AM
I always enjoy your thorough posts CF and pleased to see you're back on the shooting line. :thumb:

CFJunkie
11-14-2020, 07:40 PM
I just realized that I forgot to include the results for the 69 and 77 grain bullets comparing the performance comparisons for the Factory stock and Oryx Chassis, the Sightron II 36X scope and the Leupold 45X scope.

------------Sightron 36X – Factory – Sightron 36X – Oryx ---- Leupold 45X - Oryx
------------- Avg, --- # Groups ---------- Avg. --- # Groups -------- Avg. --- # Groups
69 gr ------ 0.308 --- 38 ---------------- 0.294 ------- 147 ---------- 0.287 ------- 70
77 gr ------ 0.295 --- 30 ---------------- 0.279 ------- 207 ---------- 0.282 ------- 82

------------ All Rounds ------------ Sightron 36X – Factory – Sightron 36X – Oryx ---- Leupold 45X - Oryx
------------ Average --- # Groups - Average -- # Groups ---- Average -- # Groups ---- Average -- # Groups
69 SMK ---- 0.296 ----- 101 -------- 0.289 ------- 12 ------------ 0.300 ------- 58 ------------ 0.290 ------31
69 TMK ---- 0.291 ----- 117 -------- 0.308 ------- 10 ------------ 0.289 ------- 57 ------------ 0.285 ------ 41
77 SMK ---- 0.296 ----- 75 ---------- 0.364 ------- 10 ------------ 0.289 ------- 29 ------------ 0.308 ------ 39
77 TMK ---- 0.281 ----- 243 -------- 0.261 ------- 20 ------------ 0.282 ------- 169 ----------- 0.282 ------ 50

I also forgot to include the comparison of the 69 and 77 grain bullets with CCI BR-4 and Remington 7½ BR small rifle primers. The performance differences were not as predictable.

------------ All Rounds --------------- Remington 7 ½ BR ---------- CCI BR-4
------------ Average --- # Groups - Average -- # Groups ---- Average -- # Groups
69 SMK ---- 0.296 ----- 101 -------- 0.298 ------- 57 ------------ 0.345 ------- 15
69 TMK ---- 0.291 ----- 117 -------- 0.285 ------- 46 ------------ 0.306 ------- 30
77 SMK ---- 0.296 ----- 75 ---------- 0.315 ------- 27 ------------ 0.293 ------- 12
77 TMK ---- 0.281 ----- 243 -------- 0.288 ------- 138 ----------- 0.267 ------- 59

hamiltonkiler
11-14-2020, 08:26 PM
77 it is
Good work.


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charlie b
11-14-2020, 09:17 PM
I have to say...I also admire the consistent accuracy you are able to get out of your rifles. Says a lot about your shooting skills.

CFJunkie
11-15-2020, 08:05 AM
charlie b

As you know, it took me several years of work to get my set-up consistent enough to see the difference between some of the loads.

When I was just measuring but not really concentrating, my 'shooter induced variations' caused me to make a lot of 'misleading conclusions' about what was really working.
You know the drill - one or two good groups (that were probably anomalies anyway) caused me to jump on the 'miracle train' and conclude that a particular load was the magic solution to accuracy. Then after jumping on each 'miracle train', I rarely was able to reproduce the same results with a large sample of groups.
Basically, I had to reduce my 'shooter induced variations' to be able to determine whether the differences were caused by me or the bullet, powder, seating depth, etc.

When I started trying to prove or disprove matching exit time reflections as a means of optimizing group size, I was forced to really concentrate on maintaining consistency be able to see the small differences in long term averages that could show the effect of tuning for exit time.
If it weren't for being anal about proving or disproving that exit time actually works, I probably never would have focused on getting consistent enough to see the small differences.

I guess it was a fortunate obsession to become so focused on the quest.
I still have lapses, as you can see from my detail data, but I can usually cure the lapse in set up technique quickly and get back on track.