Bushing Die Expander Button Pros and Cons

[Bill2905]

I am sizing 6BR cases with a Redding Type S bushing full length sizing die using a 0.267 bushing that provides 0.001 neck tension. I have 0.266 and 0.265 bushings as well but have not experimented with them yet.

I read that many bushing die users remove the expander button. Based on your experiences, what are the pros and cons of doing this? What are the effects of doing this as you increase or decrease neck tension?

Thanks

[Ted_Feasel]

I am sizing 6BR cases with a Redding Type S bushing full length sizing die using a 0.267 bushing that provides 0.001 neck tension. I have 0.266 and 0.265 bushings as well but have not experimented with them yet.

I read that many bushing die users remove the expander button. Based on your experiences, what are the pros and cons of doing this? What are the effects of doing this as you increase or decrease neck tension?

ThanksPersonally I would never remove expander ball, if it was bigger than you want I would place in drill or drill press spin it up and use some very fine sand paper to get to size you need
The pros to good neck tension is it provides proper pressure build up before bullet releases and in conjunction with some other practices can provide consistent pressure/release which will translate to better groups.
Going against the grain, ive found with precise trim length that a light crimp from my redding crimp die, will solve many neck tension problems.. im positive most will disagree with that but ive seen it on paper

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[Robinhood]

I am somewhat in agreement with Ted. For me the issue it R.O.. I have found that without lubrication on the inside of the neck and/or too much of a difference between the sized neck and the button you will probably pull run out into your neck. Neck or bullet R.O. (and inconsistent neck tension from work hardening)will kill your quest for accuracy more than small differences in powder weights at intermediate to long range, any range actually. Based on your wall thickness you can also purchase the correct button for you brass considering the desired neck tension.

[Ted_Feasel]

I am somewhat in agreement with Ted. For me the issue it R.O.. I have found that without lubrication on the inside of the neck and/or too much of a difference between the sized neck and the button you will probably pull run out into your neck. Neck or bullet R.O. (and inconsistent neck tension from work hardening)will kill your quest for accuracy more than small differences in powder weights at intermediate to long range, any range actually. Based on your wall thickness you can also purchase the correct button for you brass considering the desired neck tension.Something I've noticed over the years, when proper neck tension is achieved you will get consistently more resistance when seating and when to loose you will find some seat easy and some hard

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[daved20319]

I'm one that runs the Type S die without a neck expander button. I did a little digging and came to the conclusion that a bushing die AND a button are redundant, and kind of defeats the purpose, i.e. reducing over working your brass. Why squish it down with a carefully selected bushing, only to expand it out again? As long as you chamfer the case mouth, you don't need any more expansion to seat the bullet, especially with boat tail profiles. I know runout can be an issue as well, but that's a level of accuracy I just haven't gotten to yet. As to crimping, hey, whatever works for you in your rifle, yes, there are wrong ways to do stuff, but there's also a lot of different right ways. Later.

Dave

[Ted_Feasel]

I'm one that runs the Type S die without a neck expander button. I did a little digging and came to the conclusion that a bushing die AND a button are redundant, and kind of defeats the purpose, i.e. reducing over working your brass. Why squish it down with a carefully selected bushing, only to expand it out again? As long as you chamfer the case mouth, you don't need any more expansion to seat the bullet, especially with boat tail profiles. I know runout can be an issue as well, but that's a level of accuracy I just haven't gotten to yet. As to crimping, hey, whatever works for you in your rifle, yes, there are wrong ways to do stuff, but there's also a lot of different right ways. Later.

DaveI tried that before and your correct it will work on 98% of the cases but some have a neck bent badly enough that bushing only won't correct the flat spot(sometimes it will make it worse.. so on my forster ball I just spun it down .001and run case just enough into die to take out any flats then use a hornady bushing die to squeeze it down. If you anneal every 1 or 2 loads you will wear out pockets before anything else ( im speaking on experience with lake city, imi match, starline match and lapua) other brass may react outside of the results of obtained

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[daved20319]

I tried that before and your correct it will work on 98% of the cases but some have a neck bent badly enough that bushing only won't correct the flat spot(sometimes it will make it worse.. so on my forster ball I just spun it down .001and run case just enough into die to take out any flats then use a hornady bushing die to squeeze it down. If you anneal every 1 or 2 loads you will wear out pockets before anything else ( im speaking on experience with lake city, imi match, starline match and lapua) other brass may react outside of the results of obtained

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Hadn't thought about that, but you're right, I've seen what you describe with semi-autos. My shooting partner has an AR based 6.5 Grendel, my Grendel is a Howa mini action bolt. Case mouths out of his rifle look like "D", mine are nice and round. For brass like that, I have a carbide mandrel die that I run the brass through before sizing. Yeah, it's an extra step, but I run lots of extra steps anyway :rolleyes:. Later.

Dave

[Ted_Feasel]

Hadn't thought about that, but you're right, I've seen what you describe with semi-autos. My shooting partner has an AR based 6.5 Grendel, my Grendel is a Howa mini action bolt. Case mouths out of his rifle look like "D", mine are nice and round. For brass like that, I have a carbide mandrel die that I run the brass through before sizing. Yeah, it's an extra step, but I run lots of extra steps anyway :rolleyes:. Later.

DaveEven rarely I get one from my bolt guns where i.didnt catch it on extraction and it hit the concrete mouth first.. I hate that lol

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[Ted_Feasel]

Hadn't thought about that, but you're right, I've seen what you describe with semi-autos. My shooting partner has an AR based 6.5 Grendel, my Grendel is a Howa mini action bolt. Case mouths out of his rifle look like "D", mine are nice and round. For brass like that, I have a carbide mandrel die that I run the brass through before sizing. Yeah, it's an extra step, but I run lots of extra steps anyway :rolleyes:. Later.

DaveGlue a piece of foam rubber to the deflector and it will cut down flat spotting on your friends

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[Robinhood]

The dented case mouths are about the only time I use a ball. After shooting prone and being serious about my brass I don't think I have dented very many. The come right out of the ammo case or block and right back in.

[Ted_Feasel]

The dented case mouths are about the only time I use a ball. After shooting prone and being serious about my brass I don't think I have dented very many. The come right out of the ammo case or block and right back in.I rarely dent them unless I miss one off the beach.. maybe its anal or unnecessary but when I do have to run 1 or 2 through expander, I just do that whole batch.. I load batches of 50 .. I just feel that at least they get equal treatment.. ill FL with forster then squeeze the neck down with hornady bushing die.. ever since I started annealing I dont worry about neck and shoulders splitting.. good lord on lake city I was cracking neck on 2.or 3rd reload until i.started annealing

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[Bill2905]

The dented case mouths are about the only time I use a ball. After shooting prone and being serious about my brass I don't think I have dented very many. The come right out of the ammo case or block and right back in.

I dent more case mouths by fumbling and dropping them on the concrete floor at my loading bench then I do at the range.

[Bill2905]

I am somewhat in agreement with Ted. For me the issue it R.O.. I have found that without lubrication on the inside of the neck and/or too much of a difference between the sized neck and the button you will probably pull run out into your neck. Neck or bullet R.O. (and inconsistent neck tension from work hardening)will kill your quest for accuracy more than small differences in powder weights at intermediate to long range, any range actually. Based on your wall thickness you can also purchase the correct button for you brass considering the desired neck tension.

I use Hornady spray lube on my cases and hit them from four sides. A decent amount gets inside the case necks as I usually have to swab it out before dropping powder into them. Is that adequate to minimize pulling run out?

[bigedp51]

If you neck turn the expander is not needed, and if you do not neck turn and the neck thickness varies .002 or more you should use the expander. This will push the neck thickness variations to the outside of the case neck.

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Bushing Slection
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/140-bushing-selection

If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter.


On my Redding dies I installed a modified Forster high mounted floating expanders to reduce neck runout and drag.

​https://i.imgur.com/kWbieba.jpg

[mikeinco]

the whole idea of a bushing is to eliminate the sideways pull of a button that may give you crooked necks.
no one i know uses a pull thru button for any competition loading..no one.
i shoot a lot and know a bunch of shooters, 50 to 2000 yards...no one uses a pull thru button on brass.

[Ted_Feasel]

the whole idea of a bushing is to eliminate the sideways pull of a button that may give you crooked necks.
no one i know uses a pull thru button for any competition loading..no one.
i shoot a lot and know a bunch of shooters, 50 to 2000 yards...no one uses a pull thru button on brass.I really only use them on bent mouth or on my gas guns because I FL all their brass.

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[Robinhood]

the whole idea of a bushing is to eliminate the sideways pull of a button that may give you crooked necks.
no one i know uses a pull thru button for any competition loading..no one.
i shoot a lot and know a bunch of shooters, 50 to 2000 yards...no one uses a pull thru button on brass.


Yup.

[GrenGuy]

The way I take care of dented case mouths is with a tapered punch. Much less trauma than pushing that ball through, then pulling it back just to get dents out.

I full length size and shoulder bump with a Redding Body Die, neck size with a Lee Collet Die, and finish off with a Sinclair Mandrel.

Get consistent neck tension, and very little run out.

[mikeinco]

i manage to do my gas gun brass without pulling a button thru them.



I really only use them on bent mouth or on my gas guns because I FL all their brass.

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[Ted_Feasel]

i manage to do my gas gun brass without pulling a button thru them.Gas guns i just FL with ball to make it simple since I put a moderate crimp on all my AR rounds, 5.56, 6.5 grendel, 6.5 creedmoor and 308 on all those I would charge them, then extract and increase crimp till I didn't get any movement. I had a couple incidents(minor ones) that made me decide to crimp all AR rounds

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