warm barrels

[Shortbox4x4]

All makes sense.. ive just (when at the range where under big shaded canopies just made the habit of storing all my loads in the same shaded area in a ammo box and allowing a minimum cool down time between shots, this makes more of a difference a on 416 stainless barrels it appears compared to my 4150 match barrels.. the 4150 seems like it can handle a lot of "more" rapid fire and abuse than the 416 r stainless match but at normal Temps the 416r definitely seems to have superior accuracy all though one of the newer 416R chrome lined barrels I use is pretty darn close to the stainless barrels

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It’s been proving over and over again in controlled testing. There is no accuracy difference between 4140, 4150 and 416 material.

Think of this. If there truly was a difference then the 416 material wouldn’t be allowed on gov’t test barrels.

Besides the Gov’t.....commercial ammo and bullet makers have also tested the different material and they can find no difference.

Maybe and just maybe that way back when 416 started being used for barrels there was a difference in those first lots of material but as of right now I’ll say old wise tail. When I started shooting hi power rifle back in the late 80’s. A guy noticed I had a cm barrel on my service rifle. He comes up to me and says you want a ss barrel. I said really? Why? He said in 308win the barrel will go a 1k rounds longer barrel life wise. Guess what....no proof to it.

I won’t name the bullet/ammo maker but every time they burn out a 308win accuracy test barrel they send it back to me and I get exact round count data. In the last five barrels in no random order.....the barrels went....9k+ rounds, 11,280, 13k+, 12k+ and the last one went 14,560 rounds! Accuracy requirement was .5moa or better with the bullets being tested as that was the requirement. The vast majority of button barrels will never make that round count. Again those barrels where all 416R.

[Ted_Feasel]

It’s been proving over and over again in controlled testing. There is no accuracy difference between 4140, 4150 and 416 material.

Think of this. If there truly was a difference then the 416 material wouldn’t be allowed on gov’t test barrels.

Besides the Gov’t.....commercial ammo and bullet makers have also tested the different material and they can find no difference.

Maybe and just maybe that way back when 416 started being used for barrels there was a difference in those first lots of material but as of right now I’ll say old wise tail. When I started shooting hi power rifle back in the late 80’s. A guy noticed I had a cm barrel on my service rifle. He comes up to me and says you want a ss barrel. I said really? Why? He said in 308win the barrel will go a 1k rounds longer barrel life wise. Guess what....no proof to it.

I won’t name the bullet/ammo maker but every time they burn out a 308win accuracy test barrel they send it back to me and I get exact round count data. In the last five barrels in no random order.....the barrels went....9k+ rounds, 11,280, 13k+, 12k+ and the last one went 14,560 rounds! Accuracy requirement was .5moa or better with the bullets being tested as that was the requirement. The vast majority of button barrels will never make that round count. Again those barrels where all 416R.There is some reason match shooters prefer 416r and I know 1st hand 416 is easier to lap

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[Ted_Feasel]

It’s been proving over and over again in controlled testing. There is no accuracy difference between 4140, 4150 and 416 material.

Think of this. If there truly was a difference then the 416 material wouldn’t be allowed on gov’t test barrels.

Besides the Gov’t.....commercial ammo and bullet makers have also tested the different material and they can find no difference.

Maybe and just maybe that way back when 416 started being used for barrels there was a difference in those first lots of material but as of right now I’ll say old wise tail. When I started shooting hi power rifle back in the late 80’s. A guy noticed I had a cm barrel on my service rifle. He comes up to me and says you want a ss barrel. I said really? Why? He said in 308win the barrel will go a 1k rounds longer barrel life wise. Guess what....no proof to it.

I won’t name the bullet/ammo maker but every time they burn out a 308win accuracy test barrel they send it back to me and I get exact round count data. In the last five barrels in no random order.....the barrels went....9k+ rounds, 11,280, 13k+, 12k+ and the last one went 14,560 rounds! Accuracy requirement was .5moa or better with the bullets being tested as that was the requirement. The vast majority of button barrels will never make that round count. Again those barrels where all 416R.But i would agree machine techniques have improved to the point 4150 is getting very close

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[Ted_Feasel]

Cold clean barrel? Cold dirty barrel? Need more detail.

How many rounds on each barrel?

Caliber?All from clean barrels 308 andn6.5 cm

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[charlie b]

Frank, understand. Just hoped it was cause business and health were good.

[Shortbox4x4]

All from clean barrels 308 andn6.5 cm

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How many rounds on them?

[Shortbox4x4]

Frank, understand. Just hoped it was cause business and health were good.


Business and health are good! I hope everyone is here as well!

Sometimes I’ll pop in on a forum that I frequent but don’t always log in.

The forums I frequent the most (time permitting) are OZ F Class forums (yes the guys from Down Under), accurate shooter, snipershide and Savage Shooters forum. None of the ones I listed are in any particular order. That’s pretty much it. In the past I’ve been on the Rimfire forum and benchrest central but not much on those.

If you need to get a hold of me I tell everyone to either email thru the works website or give a call. A lot of times guys will message me thru a forum but like I said I don’t always log in.

At work alone....I do over 5k emails a year. Not counting phone calls etc...So like I said not that I don’t come around all the time per say but only so much time for all of it. I love guns and have been fascinated by them since about 5 years old. I held my first one (6.5 Jap Arisaka) dropped it also! Ask my wife...she will tell you that I’m in my gun room at least once a day (unless I”m gone from the house) and always looking at something, reloading or working on something. I’m very thankful she puts up with me!

[Shortbox4x4]

There is some reason match shooters prefer 416r and I know 1st hand 416 is easier to lap

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I’ll say they machine differently but don’t feel they lap any differently per say. Lapping should be done as a final finish/polish. It shouldn’t be done to achieve size per say. I’ve seen makers where the bore and or groove where a .001” undersize and they would lap the barrel up to size per say but that’s a no no in our book.

[Ted_Feasel]

How many rounds on them?200 on both, 200 on both bartlien and faxon.. all from clean cold bore, the faxon and bartlien almost like clock work will pull the first shot about 3 mill, the shilen and criterion dont pull at all from cold clean bore . All have been that way since new. It doesn't bother me because after that first shot the bartlien and faxon a nearly as accurate as the criterion and shilen.. but one thing I have notice the 4150 faxon can take the heat and some punishment without changing poi

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[Ted_Feasel]

I’ll say they machine differently but don’t feel they lap any differently per say. Lapping should be done as a final finish/polish. It shouldn’t be done to achieve size per say. I’ve seen makers where the bore and or groove where a .001” undersize and they would lap the barrel up to size per say but that’s a no no in our book.I would say in my experience I do hand lap alot of barrels that 416r gives a better finish. There is a before and after picture. I reckon its pretty clear which is after. Customer reported 1/2 moa groups as well as consistently 1/2 moa afterwards https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200818/5c5ae4649096ea97766e701a216448ef.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200818/419c1bc6d35775ce6b9284f052e2e5ee.jpg

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[Shortbox4x4]

I guess for starters the bores of our barrels don't look like that to begin with.

Also how rough the bore of the barrel is regardless of the material can make it more difficult to lap. I tried lapping a cm 45acp barrel for a Thompson Sub Machine gun one time. the bore was so rough!!! That after pouring the lap you couldn't get the lap to push out and or pull thru the barrel at all! No lapping compound etc....on it. Had to physically melt the lead out of the barrel. Tried it 3x and gave up. Used the barrel as a pattern and made a brand new barrel from scratch.

I finished lapped brand new 12/45 dated Vickers water cooled machine gun barrels in 303 Brit when I had my Vickers. The bores for a machine gun barrel where very nice. I finish lapped each one of them and I'll tell you this.....they where so nice looking that it would be hard to make them very much better. I still have one of them. Again compared to a 416 barrel it would be hard to tell the difference other than the barrel has the original blued finish on it. Again I think it goes back to the quality of the material and how nice the machine work is on the inside of the barrel that will determine how it laps.

Cold clean bore. I tell guys over and over again. Pay attention to the gun it will tell you what is going on. You have to learn how to read it. If you leave any solvent in the bore before the first shot that can cause flyers as well. Also some barrels especially as they get wear on them might want a fouling shot down the bore of the barrel before it will settle down. Also as the barrel starts to crack and wear in the throat area even though you dry patched it the solvent will sit down in those cracks and fissures and when you start firing it the solvent will work it's way to the surface and cause the issue as well.

To me a barrel that has stress in it....as you shoot it and it gets hot.....and you don't make any sight adjustments and you see the shots walk on paper....let the gun cool. Don't touch the sights at all. After the gun cools start shooting it again. If it starts out at the original point of aim and as it heats up and the shots start walking again. That to me is a clear sign of residual stress in the blank or that that barrel has a bad bow to it(our terminology for being bent). The steel has a memory. When it cools it goes back to it's original starting point.

[Fuj']

Cold clean barrel? Cold dirty barrel? Need more detail.


Frank touches on something I'll expand on. I never start to get serious
until a clean cold barrel has had it's fouler shots. The accuracy experienced
in the OP, could be just that !! You most likely hit the sweet spot where your
barrel likes to be. Just the right amount of barrel deposit, combined with the
right amount of temp.....Foreplay !! LOL

[Ted_Feasel]

I guess for starters the bores of our barrels don't look like that to begin with.

Also how rough the bore of the barrel is regardless of the material can make it more difficult to lap. I tried lapping a cm 45acp barrel for a Thompson Sub Machine gun one time. the bore was so rough!!! That after pouring the lap you couldn't get the lap to push out and or pull thru the barrel at all! No lapping compound etc....on it. Had to physically melt the lead out of the barrel. Tried it 3x and gave up. Used the barrel as a pattern and made a brand new barrel from scratch.

I finished lapped brand new 12/45 dated Vickers water cooled machine gun barrels in 303 Brit when I had my Vickers. The bores for a machine gun barrel where very nice. I finish lapped each one of them and I'll tell you this.....they where so nice looking that it would be hard to make them very much better. I still have one of them. Again compared to a 416 barrel it would be hard to tell the difference other than the barrel has the original blued finish on it. Again I think it goes back to the quality of the material and how nice the machine work is on the inside of the barrel that will determine how it laps.

Cold clean bore. I tell guys over and over again. Pay attention to the gun it will tell you what is going on. You have to learn how to read it. If you leave any solvent in the bore before the first shot that can cause flyers as well. Also some barrels especially as they get wear on them might want a fouling shot down the bore of the barrel before it will settle down. Also as the barrel starts to crack and wear in the throat area even though you dry patched it the solvent will sit down in those cracks and fissures and when you start firing it the solvent will work it's way to the surface and cause the issue as well.

To me a barrel that has stress in it....as you shoot it and it gets hot.....and you don't make any sight adjustments and you see the shots walk on paper....let the gun cool. Don't touch the sights at all. After the gun cools start shooting it again. If it starts out at the original point of aim and as it heats up and the shots start walking again. That to me is a clear sign of residual stress in the blank or that that barrel has a bad bow to it(our terminology for being bent). The steel has a memory. When it cools it goes back to it's original starting point.I cant disagree but ive also had some barrels that I was not able to by hand get to start so I made a rig welded a frame up and a geared hand crank that gives me alot of mechanical advantage and will also let me make sure I get a very even pull. I typically on a really rough barrel go 220 to 320 to 600 on the compund

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[Ted_Feasel]

I guess for starters the bores of our barrels don't look like that to begin with.

Also how rough the bore of the barrel is regardless of the material can make it more difficult to lap. I tried lapping a cm 45acp barrel for a Thompson Sub Machine gun one time. the bore was so rough!!! That after pouring the lap you couldn't get the lap to push out and or pull thru the barrel at all! No lapping compound etc....on it. Had to physically melt the lead out of the barrel. Tried it 3x and gave up. Used the barrel as a pattern and made a brand new barrel from scratch.

I finished lapped brand new 12/45 dated Vickers water cooled machine gun barrels in 303 Brit when I had my Vickers. The bores for a machine gun barrel where very nice. I finish lapped each one of them and I'll tell you this.....they where so nice looking that it would be hard to make them very much better. I still have one of them. Again compared to a 416 barrel it would be hard to tell the difference other than the barrel has the original blued finish on it. Again I think it goes back to the quality of the material and how nice the machine work is on the inside of the barrel that will determine how it laps.

Cold clean bore. I tell guys over and over again. Pay attention to the gun it will tell you what is going on. You have to learn how to read it. If you leave any solvent in the bore before the first shot that can cause flyers as well. Also some barrels especially as they get wear on them might want a fouling shot down the bore of the barrel before it will settle down. Also as the barrel starts to crack and wear in the throat area even though you dry patched it the solvent will sit down in those cracks and fissures and when you start firing it the solvent will work it's way to the surface and cause the issue as well.

To me a barrel that has stress in it....as you shoot it and it gets hot.....and you don't make any sight adjustments and you see the shots walk on paper....let the gun cool. Don't touch the sights at all. After the gun cools start shooting it again. If it starts out at the original point of aim and as it heats up and the shots start walking again. That to me is a clear sign of residual stress in the blank or that that barrel has a bad bow to it(our terminology for being bent). The steel has a memory. When it cools it goes back to it's original starting point.My match barrels are mirror smooth to start with, those pics are from a factory savage barrel i tuned up, it had alot of tooling marks and a tight spot.. cleared up those and it shoots great now.

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[tobnpr]

. The vast majority of button barrels will never make that round count. Again those barrels where all 416R.

You raise an issue here (barrel life) with cut-rifled being superior that I haven't seen before.
Yes, we know they're tighter tolerance, stressed less in the manufacturing than the button process, and can be contoured after cutting the rifling.

When we talk barrel "life", it's generally a reference to the throat as that's the area that gets eroded by the plasma/heat. How does the rifling method (as opposed to alloy) account for reduced throat erosion in cut vs. button rifled?

[charlie b]

Business and health are good! I hope everyone is here as well!

Sometimes I’ll pop in on a forum that I frequent but don’t always log in. ....

Glad to hear. I know I am glad the business is well as I will be ordering a barrel sometime later this year for my 12BVSS, probably 6BRA.

I was surprised that you would visit this site much at all with the small number of us in here. But, really glad you do.

thanks again.

[Ted_Feasel]

Glad to hear. I know I am glad the business is well as I will be ordering a barrel sometime later this year for my 12BVSS, probably 6BRA.

I was surprised that you would visit this site much at all with the small number of us in here. But, really glad you do.

thanks again.I want to try out a bartlien on another rifle I have but unfortunately I won't have the funds for probably a long time. I would love to try a 6 dasher on a trued savage action i have but it may never happen :(

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[charlie b]

...Also as the barrel starts to crack and wear in the throat area even though you dry patched it the solvent will sit down in those cracks and fissures and when you start firing it the solvent will work it's way to the surface and cause the issue as well....

I had thought about that at one time and wondered if using an evaporating(?) solvent like acetone or MEK in the barrel after cleaning would get rid of some of that.

When you shoot a CM barrel do you leave oil in it for rust prevention? When starting to shoot for the day do you dry patch it or just shoot? Again, would using something like acetone help to get the residual oils out of the barrel? When I shoot my side lock muzzle loader I clean out the barrel with alcohol before shooting at the range. Helps reduce misfires due to oils in the primer flame path.

[Ted_Feasel]

I had thought about that at one time and wondered if using an evaporating(?) solvent like acetone or MEK in the barrel after cleaning would get rid of some of that.

When you shoot a CM barrel do you leave oil in it for rust prevention? When starting to shoot for the day do you dry patch it or just shoot? Again, would using something like acetone help to get the residual oils out of the barrel? When I shoot my side lock muzzle loader I clean out the barrel with alcohol before shooting at the range. Helps reduce misfires due to oils in the primer flame path.I only oil when I'm done then solvent and dry patch before shooting

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[charlie b]

I want to try out a bartlien on another rifle I have but unfortunately I won't have the funds for probably a long time. I would love to try a 6 dasher on a trued savage action i have but it may never happen :(

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Yep, saving pennies :)

I do not compete so the extra 150fps or so from the Dasher would not be worth the extra trouble of brass forming and maintaining and development. 6BR and BRA are straightforward to get components, dies and such and have a long history of performance.