Misfires / primer issues

[bdspen]

Hi, I'm pretty new to reloading and having some trouble with misfires and even some hang-fire on my reloads. I'm thinking the issue is with my reloads and not necessarily the rifle since I fired about 100 rounds of factory ammo and they all fired perfectly.

On my reloads I would say about 1 in 5 are misfires and 1 in 10 are hang-fire.

Looking at the misfired primers, the primers have a real nice dent in them so it seems they should have fired....

The rifle is a custom savage axis chambered in 223 wylde.
I am using federal 205m gold medal match small rifle primers, IMR 4895 and lake city brass that I bought once fired.
During reloading I full length resized each case, trimmed, removed the primer crimp, cleaned the primer pockets and seated the primers with a lee ram prime. It felt like they were seating fully and firmly. I checked every case for proper headspace with the wilson case gauge.

After the first few misfires I dissasembled and cleaned my bolt and firing pin, but still getting the same frequency of misfires.

I have also tried re-firing the dud rounds but none of them went off after up to 3 more attempted firings.

What do you all think might be the issue? What should I try next?

[celltech]

Could be a bad batch of primers...look at them carefully and make sure they have their anvils and a good amount of primer mixture in them. I also know when I have tried removing primer crimps it seems like the primers are hard to insert, want to go in at an angle, etc....just a real pain. So maybe try some in new or non-crimped brass.

[bdspen]

Could be a bad batch of primers...look at them carefully and make sure they have their anvils and a good amount of primer mixture in them. I also know when I have tried removing primer crimps it seems like the primers are hard to insert, want to go in at an angle, etc....just a real pain. So maybe try some in new or non-crimped brass.

I'll check the primers. I'll also try reloading some of the non crimped brass from the factory ammo that fired successfully (winchester). I think I'll also try reloading some of the lake city brass that I have fired as maybe it fits the chamber better as maybe it was a headspace issue.

[bdspen]

I just checked about 50 primers from the box and they all look uniform and good to me... I wont be able to check the primers on the duds until i pull them apart. I also compared the headspace on fired rounds and the duds with the hornady headspace comparator. All of the fired rounds measured 3.470 - 3.471 and the duds measured from 3.464 - 3.470 so a little shorter than the fired cases, but some are measuring the same as the fired cases... Is this enough to cause an issue?

Also, could the primers be set too deep? What is the spec supposed to be for primer seating depth?

[CFJunkie]

It is possible that some of your primers weren't seated all the way into the primer pocket.
Seating in brass with crimped primer pockets could make it difficult to get the primer fully seated.
When the the firing pin hits a primer that isn't fully seated, it forces the primer to where it should be seated but there is no force left to ignite the primer.
If the firing pin doesn't sharply strike and press down on the anvil in the primer, it won't fire.

Check your primers after you seat them to see if they are slightly below the rim of the primer pocket.
You should be able to feel a slight depression. Check your factory ammo to see how they are seated.
Don't be afraid to press them deep enough into the pocket to be sure they are seated.

As for the measurements of the cases, the SAAMI recommendation for O.A.L of a .223 round is 2.250.
Some of the heavier bullets might recommend 2.260, but both of those SAAMI recommendations are based primarily on AR-15 magazine limits.
My AICS .223 mags will allow up to 2.500 O.A.L.
For a bolt action, at least my .223 Savages, the chambers might be as deep as 2.350 to 2.375.
They would never be as long as 3.464 to 3.471 so I don't understand your headspace measurements.
Am I missing something?

[bdspen]

CFJunkie, the headspace measurements I gave were just me putting the case in the comparator without zeroing the calipers on the comparator body first, so they are provided just for comparison purposes between the fired and unfired cases. Sorry if that is confusing.

When I was pressing the primers in the pocket I was sure to make sure to seat them below the rim of the primer pocket, I checked each one. Most had a nice positive "bottom out" feeling when seating the primers, though it could be that the crimp screwed up some of them.

Is it really possible that a not completely seated primer would not ignite even after trying 3 times?

When seating them next time, is there a reasonable limit to how much pressure i should be applying when seating primers? Are there any measurements I can make off the primer itself to ensure it is fully seated?

Thanks for the replies.

[bdspen]

Could it be any issue with the gun? maybe the federal primers are harder than primers on the winchester factory ammo I was using, leading to failures on the federal but not the winchester?

[bdspen]

So the dud primers have primer mixture in them, while some primers have nice dents in them, some look like light strikes.

[243winxb]

Was a spray lube used to full length size the brass? A spray may contaminate powder & primer if over done.

Primers are seat to the bottom of the pockets. No more. Primers can be flush with the case head to .008" below.

Headspace or head clearance should not be an issue with a Savage Axis. The extractor hold the case.

A slow firing pin speed will cause misfires. Has a custom trigger been added & causing drag on the pin.

Pin protrusion should be about .055" above the bolt face.

[243winxb]

The firing pin strike will set the case shoulder back .006" when a primer does not fire in my 223 Axis.

The 2nd strike will push the shoulder back more, to .013" in my Axis. This is when a CCI 400 did not fire.

Case separation may happen when there is more then .010" head clearance. Or cartridge slop in the chamber.
Use a comparator to measure head to datum of the brass. A comparator can be homemade or buy a Hornady comparitor.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

" I fired about 100 rounds of factory ammo and they all fired perfectly.
On my reloads I would say about 1 in 5 are misfires and 1 in 10 are hang-fire".


Not a primer issue. Been thru maybe 5000 +++ and the only one FTF cause it got wet from laying the grass overnight.
Head space issue!! (not mechanical) KEEP IT SIMPLE!!
Brass OAL too short (at the shoulder) for the chamber, just enough that the firing pin pushes the case forward in the chamber and no matter what the primer looks like, you got a soft strike. (been there, done that but not anymore)
On the rounds that FTF, (reloads) pull the bullets out a bit so they jam into the lands. The case head is held back against the bolt head.
Once fired, make sure when you resize the case that you don't push the shoulders back too far and end up with the same situation AGAIN. And if you ever question if a primer is bad or not, press it out and do the hammer thing on a hard surface. BANG!! It was good. :cool:

[243winxb]

The rifle is a custom savage axis chambered in 223 wylde. May have something to do with the problem.

But my Axis doesnt need a shoulder to fire primers. The case does need to be held by the extractor.


243winxb- Head Clearance and Misfires

No Shoulder, & it still Fired - Shoulder not needed to fire a primer. Savage Axis 223- TEST- Cut case off behind the shoulder. Install new primer in fired case. Load into rifle using a cleaning rod to place case head in bolt face & under the extractor. Did this 2 times. Both primers fired . https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/head-clearance-and-misfires.1377/full

[bdspen]

Was a spray lube used to full length size the brass? A spray may contaminate powder & primer if over done.

What is the best way to remove contaminants? I don't have a case tumbler or anything like that.


Primers are seat to the bottom of the pockets. No more. Primers can be flush with the case head to .008" below.

If a primer is lower than that in the pocket, could it cause light strikes? I'll check the firing pin protrusion as well if I can. Honestly I would say just by eyeballing the primers look deeper than .008. EDIT: Nevermind, they are all at .006 and above.


A slow firing pin speed will cause misfires. Has a custom trigger been added & causing drag on the pin.

There is a custom trigger on the gun, rifle basix trigger.


The firing pin strike will set the case shoulder back .006" when a primer does not fire in my 223 Axis.

The 2nd strike will push the shoulder back more, to .013" in my Axis. This is when a CCI 400 did not fire.

I have a comparator, I didn't realize that the firing pin itself could set the shoulder back so much! It would be an interesting thing to try and quantify on my rifle.


"
Head space issue!! (not mechanical) KEEP IT SIMPLE!!


Nor Cal Mikie, I think you may be right as well, As far as my process went for full length resizing, I was just making sure the finished cases fit into a case guage. I might have made them too short when resizing because it was my first time. Do I even need to full length resize if the cases fit into the guage within spec without resizing? Maybe my chamber is at the higher end as far as headspace. I'll reload some with bullets jammed and see if there are any misfires....

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Once fired, if the case chambers and the bolt closes without too much resistance, do a short resize to just the neck, load it up and shoot it.
(it's known as neck sizing)
And the firing pin has nothing to do with setting (resizing) the shoulder back too far. You do that by mistake when you resize in the press. You'll learn in time.:(
No way the below posted can happen?? You see how much effort it takes to push the shoulder back in the press?? Never happen!!
And the only thing that keeps the case head against the bolt head is the head space measurement. Too loose and the case can be pushed forward by the firing pin. That's why you can have a soft strike. Too tight and you have problems closing the bolt. The extractor just holds it on the bolt head so you can extract the case from the chamber.

"The firing pin strike will set the case shoulder back .006" when a primer does not fire in my 223 Axis.
The 2nd strike will push the shoulder back more, to .013" in my Axis. This is when a CCI 400 did not fire.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

If the fired case will re chamber without too much resistance, do a short resize, just enough to punch the primer out and size the neck WITHOUT PUSHING THE SHOULDER BACK!!
The fired brass has probably formed to the chamber. (the shoulder has blown out to fit the chamber)
Forget the gauge. The only thing you may have to deal with is the OAL if you load from a mag.
I single load all my rigs so that's not an issue for me.
If you measure the case, do it BEFORE you size. DON'T PUSH THE SHOULDER BACK Or you'll be in the same boat all over again.
As far as case contamination, wipe and excess off (after loading) with a rag and brake parts cleaner. If the sizing lube should get inside the case, a Q Tip with the cleaner will do the trick.
If a firing pin can push a case shoulder back .006 then .013, (?) I need to see that.:rolleyes:

[bigedp51]

And the firing pin has nothing to do with setting (resizing) the shoulder back too far. You do that by mistake when you resize in the press. You'll learn in time.:(
No way the below posted can happen?? You see how much effort it takes to push the shoulder back in the press?? Never happen!!

"The firing pin strike will set the case shoulder back .006" when a primer does not fire in my 223 Axis.
The 2nd strike will push the shoulder back more, to .013" in my Axis. This is when a CCI 400 did not fire.



Reloading manuals tell you to not use cases that were used with reduced loads again with full power loads because the firing pin can set the shoulder back. And if these reduced load cases are used with full power loads you can have a case head seperation.

[bigedp51]

And the firing pin has nothing to do with setting (resizing) the shoulder back too far. You do that by mistake when you resize in the press. You'll learn in time.:(
No way the below posted can happen?? You see how much effort it takes to push the shoulder back in the press?? Never happen!!

"The firing pin strike will set the case shoulder back .006" when a primer does not fire in my 223 Axis.
The 2nd strike will push the shoulder back more, to .013" in my Axis. This is when a CCI 400 did not fire.



Reloading manuals tell you to not use cases that were used with reduced loads again with full power loads because the firing pin can set the shoulder back. And if these reduced load cases are used with full power loads you can have a case head seperation.

[Texas10]

The most common reasons for FTF is F.L. sizing a case too short from base to datum or not seating primers to the bottom of the pocket (or pocket has been reamed too deep).

If you seat your bullets into the lands, you'll have less problems with FTF but that is not addressing the cause of the problem, not setting up your dies properly.

Instead of FL sizing, you might try neck sizing your 223 brass. I've been doing this for years with the Lee die and can get dozens of cycles out of my brass without F.L. sizing. Also helps keep bullet runout to a minimum. I only FL size when bolt close is stiff.

When I break in a new barrel, I will not F.L size the brass until I have issues with closing the bolt on the cartridge. This tells me my brass if fully fire formed to the chamber, and I then keep one of these cases as a chamber model to reference measurements from. If you know exactly what your base to shoulder dimension is when fully fire formed, you can easily set your dies to -.001 or -.002 under that dimension. Besides eliminating FTF issues, your loads will shoot more consistently and your brass will last longer, needing fewer trimming operations and reducing the likelihood of incipient case separation.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

AGAIN, how much force does it take to move a shoulder back with a press?? When I see the measurements with my own eyes AND I see the firing pin was able to move the shoulder back .006 THEN .013?? Only then will take that into consideration. And if the "firing pin" has enough strength to move a case shoulder, the case was AT the separating point already and you were just asking for trouble.:eek:
I don't know everything cause I've only been reloading for about 45 or 50 years (that's about 5000 +++ rounds) so I could have missed that part along the way??
And if you're talking about the case measurement changing between a low power load compared to a higher power load, the OAL of the case lengthens because the case body is thin and close to separating just above the case head. (that's head space and case head separation)
I'am from Missouri and I've got to see it with my own eyes to believe it.
SO, if and when you find that part about the "firing pin" being able to move the shoulder back posted in any reloading manual, post it on here far ALL to see.
I shoot an M1A and a Mini 14 so I know what it is and am well aware of "case head separation" because I've experienced a few.;)

[sharpshooter]

I would have to agree......a firing pin strike will not push a shoulder back, period. The small surface area of the tip of the pin concentrates the energy in one spot and will only continue to deform the primer, because the primer is not solid among other things. Consider a firing pin inertia at 4 ft/lbs, while it takes 50 to 200 lbs pressure in a press to move a shoulder back, depending how much you move it.