338 lapua reciever question

[sharpshooter]

Kirby Allen is correct, the Remington has more surface than a Weatherby. The strength of the Weatherby is mostly hype, but you have to consider in a factory Weatherby caliber, they use a lot of freebore to reduce pressure.
9 lugs over 2 is nothing more than marketing hype, because I've never seen one that had more than 3 bearing at any time. The lugs are so shallow, I actually seen one that "jumped a row" from a high pressure load. The bolt actually wedged the receiver apart enough that it backed up one row of lugs. I've heard more horror stories about Weatherby actions coming apart that were rebarreled with big caliber wildcats, than anything else. About 25 years ago, I was in PA hunting wood chucks when I stumbled upon a local gunsmith. I stopped in just for a chat, and discovered he built a lot of long range rifles. In our conversations, the subject came up about action strength. He pulled out a photo album he called "The survivors book of shame". It was filled with pictures of shooters holding their fragmented rifles, blood and all, taken at local ranges. There musta been at least a dozen Weatherby's in pieces, a few Winchesters, and one Remington. Most of them, he built.
You can push things right to the limit, but you still need a "safety window" for when people make mistakes. I had a lengthy conversation with Carl Hildebrandt when he was still head engineer at Savage. One of the questions was why they changed the WSM's over to a large shank barrel. They originally built them with a standard shank for about a year, then went to the large shank. He explained to me about their "window of safety". This is the area between proof pressures and destruction pressure. The standard shank versions only covered 98% of that window. In his opinion, that was actually past what a realistic situation would entail. If something catastrophic would happen and they had to appear in court, 100% would sound a hell of a lot better than 98%. At the same time, they were getting complaints about sticky extractions, and he contributed that to some of the Winchester ammo that was circulating about at the time. Winchester themselves had a problem with model 70's and proof loads that had to have the bolts hammered to open.
So the solution to problem was to increase the breech diameter. It was easy to change production over to the large shank at the time, as the large shank (1.120") was already in use in their 210 shotguns, so they already had the tooling.

[J.Baker]

Made this a sticky as there's a wealth of good info here.

[efm77]

Thanks Sharpshooter. You confirmed my suspicions about the Weatherby. I've suspected for years either marketing hype, or some sort of strange metallurgy that I didn't know about. And your speaking about Savage's safety margin, still makes me think that they must feel it's beefy enough to handle the Lapua. Otherwise it seems they'd make more changes, go to a larger action, or stop production all together, and possibly even recall them if it appeared to have a high likelihood to fail. I've got a set of Lapua headspace gauges on the way since I was planning to rebarrel mine, but will keep a close eye on them even before changing barrels to see if there's a noticeable increase in headspace. I've also got a RPR on the way in 338 Lapua. I'm going to measure it's receiver, lugs, barrel shank when it gets here to compare to the Savage and see if it's any bigger. I would think Ruger, being known for making strong actions anyway, would build theirs large enough to have plenty of a safety margin. Appreciate the info.

[Robinhood]

Don't forget to have the metallurgy checked also.......

[efm77]

Don't forget to have the metallurgy checked also.......

what you mean? Check for setback? Cracks? I will be sure to.

[tobnpr]

Ruger's RPR in .338 LM is the same receiver as used in the .300 Win Mag model... no clue, though how those dimensions would compare to Savage.

Short of sending a receiver to a testing lab, you're not going to be able to determine the metallurgy /alloy composition.

[efm77]

Ruger's RPR in .338 LM is the same receiver as used in the .300 Win Mag model... no clue, though how those dimensions would compare to Savage.

Short of sending a receiver to a testing lab, you're not going to be able to determine the metallurgy /alloy composition.


My thoughts exactly about the metallurgy part. I think he might have meant the headspace part of it though but not sure and is why I asked. I will keep an eye on my headspace and have replacement barrels planned to put on mine so I will check the lug abutments for set back signs when I take the factory barrels off of them. As for the RPR, I knew the 300 win mag and 338 Lapua were the same size. All they say is that they've up-scaled them from the short action models (308, 6.5cm etc) to accommodate the larger rounds. However, that's the most I've heard, no exact measurements. It's ok though, I'll find out soon enough. I've ordered an RPR in 338 Lapua so I'll measure it myself when I get it.

[Robinhood]

Ru
Short of sending a receiver to a testing lab, you're not going to be able to determine the metallurgy /alloy composition.

Unless you have access............. With modern technology and a clean spot you can get all but the grain structure.

[efm77]

Well unfortunately, I don't have access to that sort of thing. So I guess I'll just have to take Savage's word for it that it is tempered properly, etc. and keep an eye on headspace myself.

[Ted_Feasel]

Unless you have access............. With modern technology and a clean spot you can get all but the grain structure.Maybe a university can do it.. Purdue university here will analyze about anything you take to them. I took them powder from a factory load that shot really well in my 338 win mag and 5 samples of powder and they told me the one that was closes to the factory powder . The had colored printouts of each one, it was really cool

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

[Robinhood]

We Have a PMI(handheld XRF analyzer) gun at the JOB. We also have a Brinell and Rockwell hardness testing equipment. Metal composition is critical in my line of work.

[efm77]

I don't have access to that, though I wish I did. So I'll just have to take the manufacturer's word for it that it is tempered properly.

Of interesting note, I did receive my RPR in 338 Lapua yesterday and I compared the bolt side by side with my Savage Lapua bolt tonight and measured the locking lugs with my caliper. Depending on which side I measured the height of the lugs (from the rear bearing side or from the front side at the bolt face), the Ruger has between 20% to 30% more surface area. The Ruger's lugs are a little smaller than the Savage, but they're big enough that the 3 of them combined offer greater surface area over the Savage's two locking lugs. They are also a little shorter front to back as well. But again, the 3 of them combined added up to more than the two lugs of the Savage. Also the width of the receiver measured 1.43" as well which is about a tenth, give or take, of an inch wider than a Savage or a Remington Receiver. I didn't have time this evening but tomorrow I will pull the handguard off and measure the barrel shank as well. I have always been a Savage and a Ruger fan but so far it looks like Ruger up-sized this receiver enough to better accommodate the Lapua case than the Savage. I still like my Savage for hunting though as it is much lighter and will continue using both my Savage Lapuas as well as this new Ruger.

[efm77]

Pulled the handguard off last night. The barrel shank in front of the nut measured 1.211". Again, almost a tenth of an inch larger. This thing is built like a tank. The barrel nut is huge and is like a regular hex head nut so it can be removed with a regular wrench. Still love my Savages too but hopefully this thing shoots as good as it looks. So far, I'm impressed.

[efm77]

Savageshooter, to your point on the Savage about the feed ramp being thinner thus making the lug abutment weaker. On the Lapua actions, since they're put through a better heat treatment, would that offset the thinner abutment some? In other words, would that make it strong enough to keep it from flexing too much? Also, the 112 Magnum Target single shot models, since there is no mag cutout, have you ever seen lug set back on them? Was thinking on it that maybe since the bottom wouldn't flex due to being thin, that the force would be more evenly dispersed on both lug abutments?

[Robinhood]

Just for comparison, my sons barely used Remington 7mmRM has setback on the bottom lug also. To the tune of .0025"-.0030". So the industry standard can't handle a little ol' 7mag itself.

[efm77]

Just for comparison, my sons barely used Remington 7mmRM has setback on the bottom lug also. To the tune of .0025"-.0030". So the industry standard can't handle a little ol' 7mag itself.

That’s interesting and surprising too if it’s just a regular belted mag. I’ve heard of it happening with any cartridge if too much oil is left on the chamber walls prohibiting the case to grip. But aside from that, I haven’t. Thanks for the info.

[efm77]

I was mistaken about the barrel nut on the magnum RPR. It is made like an AR barrel nut. I'm not sure how much bigger, but imagine it's larger than a regular AR nut on the magnum version as there's a magnum specific barrel nut wrench available. The hex head I was seeing actually holds the mounting piece for the forearm. The barrel nut is underneath it and has multiple splines in it like an AR nut.

[9x23w]

Just wandered on to this thread as I have a Stealth 338 Lapua.

I must respectfully disagree with many statements made about action strength. There are very few persons who really know how much an action can take before deforming/breaking and those people are not saying a word. Why? What do you think would happen if a Savage engineer said the 110 actions were good to 80,000 psi? Bubba would be loading up rounds to that level the next day.

Years past I remember reading constantly how Ruger No. 1's could not handle the 416 Rigby based cartridges because chamber walls would be too thin. Guess what, Ruger started making them. There are loads of No. 1's around now in the big Weatherby rounds, 338 Lapuas, 308 Warbirds, and even bigger. I have never heard of one going up.

When Weatherby started making 378's, he did so on standard FN Mausers with the actions milled out to handle to 378's length. There isn't much bigger or hotter than a 378 yet I have never heard of a strength problem with those actions.

Even when manufacturers talk about action strength you cannot believe them either. For years (not sure if they are still doing it) Remington touted the 700 as having "3 rings of steel" for extreme strength. (barrel, receiver ring, and the ring on the end of the bolt). But when they started making 338 Lapuas the ring on the end of the bolt was not longer complete because they had to go to a Sako extractor. So they did away with the "3 rings of steel" when they went to the largest cartridge they ever chambered in the 700? What does that tell you about their original claim?

If anyone is having lug setback issues its from a manufacturing or modification defect, not from the original action design.

As I previously stated very few people really know what an action can handle, but that doesn't seem to stop people from offering their opinion. Unfortunately that is all it is, an opinion.

That all being said, I love my Stealth. And that's an opinion.

[efm77]

Just wandered on to this thread as I have a Stealth 338 Lapua.

I must respectfully disagree with many statements made about action strength. There are very few persons who really know how much an action can take before deforming/breaking and those people are not saying a word. Why? What do you think would happen if a Savage engineer said the 110 actions were good to 80,000 psi? Bubba would be loading up rounds to that level the next day.

Years past I remember reading constantly how Ruger No. 1's could not handle the 416 Rigby based cartridges because chamber walls would be too thin. Guess what, Ruger started making them. There are loads of No. 1's around now in the big Weatherby rounds, 338 Lapuas, 308 Warbirds, and even bigger. I have never heard of one going up.

When Weatherby started making 378's, he did so on standard FN Mausers with the actions milled out to handle to 378's length. There isn't much bigger or hotter than a 378 yet I have never heard of a strength problem with those actions.

Even when manufacturers talk about action strength you cannot believe them either. For years (not sure if they are still doing it) Remington touted the 700 as having "3 rings of steel" for extreme strength. (barrel, receiver ring, and the ring on the end of the bolt). But when they started making 338 Lapuas the ring on the end of the bolt was not longer complete because they had to go to a Sako extractor. So they did away with the "3 rings of steel" when they went to the largest cartridge they ever chambered in the 700? What does that tell you about their original claim?

If anyone is having lug setback issues its from a manufacturing or modification defect, not from the original action design.

As I previously stated very few people really know what an action can handle, but that doesn't seem to stop people from offering their opinion. Unfortunately that is all it is, an opinion.

That all being said, I love my Stealth. And that's an opinion.

Well I must respectfully disagree with a few of your points as well. Many references can be found about how much an action can handle to the point of destruction. Several times over the years I've read of engineers for manufacturers destruction testing their actions. Mos bolt actions will go to around 120k PSI before they completely blow, but you'd likely start seeing lug setback before that.

As for the 378 Weatherby case. I could be wrong because it has been a while since I've read up on it and am not currently researching it while responding, but I'm pretty sure I read that Roy went with the Magnum Mauser action for those cases, which is a bigger action than the standard.

As for the Savage action, it's not their standard action either. Yes it is the same outside dimension but that's about where it ends. If there wasn't something to that size case needing more strength they wouldn't have built them the way they do and just went with their standard long action. It undergoes a better heat treatment to make it stronger/harder. The locking lugs are longer front to back for better shear strength. The ejection port is much smaller to give it a more solid top behind the top lug abutment making the action more rigid and stronger. And the barrel tenon is larger for the Lapua's and WSM's (1.125" vs 1.055")

I have no proof, but personally think Savage made the right steps to make their Lapua action strong enough to handle it. However, I do take to heart what experienced gunsmiths say about it being marginal. To my knowledge, only Savage, Remington, and Weatherby make them on their same size actions. Any other manufacturer goes to a larger size action, including customs like Stiller. I have 3 Lapuas. Two Savages and one RPR and I can tell you that Ruger must have taken it to heart as well because the Magnum RPR receiver is larger than the Savage and it has more bearing surface area with the 3 locking lugs (I've measured and compared them). Again, they must be just strong enough though because Savage, Remington, nor Weatherby have ever recalled them that I know of. So as sort of an agreement with your point, if it were a liability to where they were afraid of getting sued, they'd likely recall them which hasn't happened.

Now does that mean the Savage is no good? No. But there is something to the greater amount of bolt thrust generated by this larger case head or they wouldn't beef up the action like they do and Ruger wouldn't have gone to a larger action. I've always suspected Weatherby's claims of being the strongest to be mostly a crock. The receiver is no bigger than a Remington or Savage, neither is the barrel tenon. The 9 locking lugs are so small, their actual bearing surface area is less than a Remington's or Savage's when all 9 are in contact which is rare.

[njaimo]

Hello,

Thinking multi-caliber, if I purchase a 110 Elite in .338 Lapua, can I later shoot .300 WM by swapping barrels, bolt head, and maybe magazine ? or will I have troubles feeding rounds ?

Also, for the small action models, if I purchase a 110 Elite in 6.5 CM, can I use the same action to shoot .223 Rem swapping barrel, bolt head, mag ?