Model 11 .223 light primer strikes

[KHawk]

This rifle is relatively new. I’ve had it probably 18 months, put approx. 150 rounds through it. I hand load all my ammunition, and have for the past 30 years.

I went through my normal load build ups, found one that groups well, loaded 100 rnds and put it in the closet, taking it out to the range to shoot 5-6, 5 shot groups. Alls well and normal. The last time out I had a FTF rnd, next shot as did a couple more. Next group had 4 misfires, but shot a couple more times from the FTF rnds. The next 5 shot group all FTF and I packed up and went home.

Day or 2 later I disassemble the bolt, clean and inspect, reassemble. Didn’t find anything out of the ordinary, wiped everything dry (used Break Free cleaner). Took the rifle out again, shot 2 rnds and started misfiring again.

Firing pin protrudes .050” or less, bolt head clean, bullet seat clears the lands, case was full sized once shot brass (all are full sized once shot LC brass), does not seem loose but haven’t accurately verified the clearance.

I’m of the opinion the spring has prematurely weakened. What do you guys think?

Keith

[Stumpkiller]

I doubt it is a weak spring.

What is the brand of primer? Do the rounds fire with repeated strikes?

Try neck sizing (back the FL dies off 1/2 to 3/4 turn) and I bet $1 it improves.

[KHawk]

I’ll give the neck sizing a try. I had a 400 piece bag of once fired brass given to me, by a friend, that I have already prepped and primed. The only brass I have now is fire formed to my chamber. I bought a brick of S&B primers at Cabelas that I used. I’m normally Winchester or CCI primers.

When the first FTF happened, I was able to reload and the round fired. The weird thing I noticed was the dents in the primers began to get lighter and lighter, until you could barely tell the pin had struck the primer.

I just find it odd that these rounds are suddenly not working after working flawlessly before now.

[Stumpkiller]

It's hard to diagnose such things from afar. The Savage has a plunger style ejector that tends to push the cartridge away from the bolt face - which can cause light strikes on a pin that doesn't extend much past the face. But 0.05" should be good. Another thing to check is how deep the primers are recessed into the case. They should be slightly below flush - but only very slightly . . . like 0.005" (dollar bill thickness).

I did a Google search on S&B Primer Height and came up with a couple threads on various forums that mentioned S&B had a shorter cup height than CCI and Federal (and some failures to fire). But I didn't find much in the specifics.

[KHawk]

I was trying to attach a photo of the light struck primers but didn’t see how to insert from my phone pics. The 2 that I shot yday were 2 of the previous FTF rnds. The other FTF rnd yday was one of the previous rnds as well. Savage wants me to send the rifle back for inspection and necessary repair, but I’ve never done that and don’t have the box anymore.

How long does that normally take?

[Fotheringill]

Welcome to the site. They know what they are writing about.

My experience with Savage service is that you will be looking at a minimum of a month. If you are not hunting with the rifle, I would send it in now, before all of the hunters come back from hunting season and blame their rifles for no kills and send them back to Savage, OR

Get a replacement spring (readily available from suppliers, OR

Invest in 100/box of CCI small rifle primers, load 20 rounds and see if there are FTF's.

What are you using to seat the primers?

[KHawk]

I seat the primers with a RCBS hand primer tool. I prefer it because I can feel the primer seat. I checked primer seating and the 60 or 70 I checked were at flush or slightly low. To see the gap I had to use a magnifying glass. I do have some Winchester primers I can try.

[Robinhood]

If your rifle has the long spring that is captured in the middle of the firing pin assembly, I would ask what kind of lubricant you used to start the troubleshooting process. If you did lubricate it, you may need to pull the firing pin out and soak it or clean all of the lube off of the cocking piece and the cocking piece sleeve, and possibly inside the bolt body. When reassembling the cocking piece sleeve should slide easily to and fro on the cocking piece. If anything is galled or distorted that will need to be repaired for it to function correctly. Assemble it dry or conservatively with some very light oil that does not dry up and gum up the firing pin parts.

If you have the spring or springs that go into the BAS on the back end of the firing pin, You will need to find what is causing the bind or increase the spring tension.

This may not be your problem but it is the place to start if your scratching your head.

[Texas10]

I have a Savage 223 that the bolt will close on a no go gage, straight from the factory. It doesn't sound like you have a primer seating issue, although my shooting buddy who's been loading for 35 years just encountered this with his old hand primer. I would suspect the once fired case is a bit short, since you mention you've not actually checked it. I would agree with Stumpkiller to neck size only until you have fully fire formed brass. Then measure and record the base to datum on a case that the bolt will close on but a bit stiff.

The other trick to try is to seat bullets long, into the lands. This will move the case head back against the bolt head. When fired, the case will stretch forward against the chamber shoulder.

[uncle-buck]

This rifle is relatively new. I’ve had it probably 18 months, put approx. 150 rounds through it. I hand load all my ammunition, and have for the past 30 years.

I went through my normal load build ups, found one that groups well, loaded 100 rnds and put it in the closet, taking it out to the range to shoot 5-6, 5 shot groups. Alls well and normal. The last time out I had a FTF rnd, next shot as did a couple more. Next group had 4 misfires, but shot a couple more times from the FTF rnds. The next 5 shot group all FTF and I packed up and went home.

Day or 2 later I disassemble the bolt, clean and inspect, reassemble. Didn’t find anything out of the ordinary, wiped everything dry (used Break Free cleaner). Took the rifle out again, shot 2 rnds and started misfiring again.

Firing pin protrudes .050” or less, bolt head clean, bullet seat clears the lands, case was full sized once shot brass (all are full sized once shot LC brass), does not seem loose but haven’t accurately verified the clearance.

I’m of the opinion the spring has prematurely weakened. What do you guys think?

Keith
Had almost exactly the same experience with a Savage 10 Predator Hunter in .223 rem.
The solution was a heavier Wolff spring for the firing pin assembly ($10) and a new bolt assembly from Midway USA ($120).
They both work flawlessly and I now have an extra bolt assembly if it ever happens again.

[KHawk]

In a previous post I explained how I cleaned the bolt assy, no lube was left, wiped dry.

The spring is actually 2 springs, stacked on top of each other, with a ring in between. It’s not one long spring. I did think about adding another ring to load the spring better.


The other trick to try is to seat bullets long, into the lands. This will move the case head back against the bolt head. When fired, the case will stretch forward against the chamber shoulder.

I'm glad you mentioned this. I did change the bullet seating shorter. My test rounds were close, (.005) to the lands, but not hitting them. When I loaded the 100 up for the range, the depth had walked out, and the bolt was stiff to close, the bullet was in the lands. So I went in and reset the bullet depth. I'm on my last 25 rnds of that batch and that is when the problem showed up. I did the same to the remaining rnds after that first outing, and they have all shot without a single FTF. But this also brings up another question to me. If the case sets into the bolt face and is held in by the extractor, would that not give it a solid seat on the bolt face?


The solution was a heavier Wolff spring for the firing pin assembly ($10) and a new bolt assembly from Midway USA ($120).

Is the Wolf spring a direct replacement or did you have to get the bolt to fit the spring? I've seen Sharp Shooters Supply in several places I have researched this problem at. Anyone have any experience with them? Word is they are the go to place for things Savage. OBTW, this is a model 11 in .223, bull barrel, camo synthetic stock.

[mnbogboy2]

My best guess is the ammo. If seating farther out (temporarily)cured it, then I believe the brass may be sized farther than necessary. A good test would be to place several layers (4-8) of "Scotch" tape on the case head of a sized empty case trim tight with scissors and then try to chamber it. My dies are set so normally it will not close on more than two thicknesses of tape ( 1 preferred). Some dies will size down way too much when set with MFG instructions.
Tightening the case head space will keep the case head closer to the bolt face, eliminating the need for "jamming" the bullets.
Fyi Scotch tape is approx. .002 thick.
Just a thought,
Randy

[KHawk]

If seating farther out (temporarily)cured it, then I believe the brass may be sized farther than necessary. A good test would be to place several layers (4-8) of "Scotch" tape on the case head of a sized empty case trim tight with scissors and then try to chamber it. My dies are set so normally it will not close on more than two thicknesses of tape ( 1 preferred). Some dies will size down way too much when set with MFG instructions.
Tightening the case head space will keep the case head closer to the bolt face, eliminating the need for "jamming" the bullets.
Fyi Scotch tape is approx. .002 thick.


Thanks Randy, I am going to do just that with the sized brass i have. Actually, seating the bullets deeper and off the lands, started the problem of FTF! LOL

When I originally loaded the test rounds they were off the lands and all fired. All the test rounds were within .010 seat depth, but not over the max length. So all test rounds were within .005 - .015 of the lands. When I loaded the 100 rnds, I set the depth die off the test rnd, and loaded my range box (I was in a hurry and did not verify bullet depth). The bolt was a bit stiff to close, with these new rnds, but wasn't a problem (I suspected the bullets were seated long this time). Rnds were accurate, grouped well (5 rnds covered with a nickel), but I did pull the bullet out when I went to unchamber a live round. And the bolt became a bit more of a problem to lock and unlock. That is why I rechecked and reset the depth. I am using a Lee die set.

What is the best way to get an accurate dimension on the cases? My Lee book shows the head space dimension to be 1.467, which is on the taper on the shoulder. They show a dia of .330 at that point.

You guys have been a great help and patient in helping me with this problem. I really do appreciate the help and time you shared with me.

Keith

[Stumpkiller]

Three tools that help a lot for consistancy:

Dial or digital vernier calipers

Hornady Headspace gauge (multiple "calibers"/datum sizes)

Hornady Comparator (also multiple calibers)

I'm a big fan of Graf & Sons for reloading so here are links.

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/5376

https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/7230

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/7288


I also have an ancient and treasured Starrett 202 Clutch Micrometer (in the original dovetailed sliding lid wooden box) that I use frequently.

Then set yourself up a chart - I use excel - and start recording measurements. Each cartridge is a page, each page has rows for the different bullets you load and each column a different measurement. When you get one that is a good shooter make a note and then you can reset your equipment quickly to duplicate the winner (and keep track of the not-so-winners as well).

[KHawk]

OK, I just checked the head space dimension. Best that I could anyway with calipers. I am very close, if not right on the dimension. Went further with the scotch tape trick. I was able to lock the bolt with 3 layers, but it was getting tight. At the 4th layer, the bolt was very tight but I was able to lock it. I could tell that the tape layers were compressing while locking. I didn't try a 5th layer because of how hard it was to lock the bolt with a 4th layer.

Thanks Stumpkiller, I will look into these tools. All I have right now are 6" calipers.

[mnbogboy2]

Tight on 3 & 4 says it may not be totally headspace. Although if you can get them "snugged" up some will still be a good thing. Your original posts says firing pin protrusion .050 or less....i shoot for .040 or so and others go as low as .035. But a lot of factory stuff comes out at .060 or a hair more.
If you adjust the depth keep in mind each tab on the "locking" washer is about .008+.
I hope you get it figured out, keep us posted.

[Robinhood]

In a previous post I explained how I cleaned the bolt assy, no lube was left, wiped dry.
You did post that, however I had know way of knowing if you disassembled it to clean under the cocking piece sleeve or if the sleeve slides back and forth easily. After reading your comment directed toward Randy, I would fix the headspace issue before I tried anything else. So no, the extractor does not provide the necessary force to keep the case from thrusting forward as the pin impacts the primer.

Since you have the Axis style firing pin and spring assembly you might also read some of the recent Axis post discussing light primer strikes.

[KHawk]

Since you have the Axis style firing pin and spring assembly you might also read some of the recent Axis post discussing light primer strikes.

That is interesting. .. Explains why all the replacement springs I am seeing were different configuration.
The cases that do fire are dented well enough to ignite the primer. I believe I will cease the firing spring replacement until I can verify the head spacing isn't the problem. I've re-seated the remaining 15 rnds to 2.205, from 2.175, to get the bullet into the lands.

And my apologies robinhood, re-reading my response, it could have easily been taken as a bit snotty, and that wasn't my intent. I disassembled the bolt to verify that it wasn't gummed up and dragging, causing the light primer strikes. And you are correct in that my bolt assembly is the Axis style. Used this video to learn how to disassemble my bolt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuY8wGb-UBk

[KHawk]

Update:

finally got out to the range to shoot the reseated rounds. All 15 rounds fired. I had one round from a previous test group that I tried as well, it FTF! And this was a round from a test group early on that all had fired. I have 50 brass that have now been fire formed in my chamber. I neck sized these, so now I’ll go back and set the depth off the lands and see if these will fire. With the bullet in the lands, my 15 shot group opened up to 1 1/2”. Previously, I would have put 15 rnds in an 1” square. For the other sized brass I can play with bullet depth if I want or just go back to the depth I just used to fire form the brass.

thanks again guys for your input.

Keith

[Stumpkiller]

Good news.