350 Legend Cartridge

[GaCop]

Has anyone had a chance to play with this cartridge? On line reviews sound pretty good. Good hog medicine with 180 grain bullet. Seems like an easy build on a Savage action with an existing 223 bolt head, requires only a barrel change.

[J.Baker]

Haven't played with it at all personally, but supposedly Savage has plans to offer it in a few models that will probably be announced for 2020. One thing that still baffles me with this cartridge is why they (Winchester) opted for the 9mm groove diameter (0.355") rather than a standard .35 caliber groove diameter (0.357") on the SAAMI reamer print (https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/350-Legend-CC-Drawing-Website.pdf). This also amounts in the bore diameter being about 0.003" smaller in diameter than a standard .35cal bore (0.346 v. 0.349").

Based on some reading I've done around the web more than a few folks have run into chambering issues when loading .358" diameter rifle bullets where they can't get the bolt fully closed due either to lack of freebore or the lead-in angle.

[GaCop]

Haven't played with it at all personally, but supposedly Savage has plans to offer it in a few models that will probably be announced for 2020. One thing that still baffles me with this cartridge is why they (Winchester) opted for the 9mm groove diameter (0.355") rather than a standard .35 caliber groove diameter (0.357") on the SAAMI reamer print (https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/350-Legend-CC-Drawing-Website.pdf). This also amounts in the bore diameter being about 0.003" smaller in diameter than a standard .35cal bore (0.346 v. 0.349").

Based on some reading I've done around the web more than a few folks have run into chambering issues when loading .358" diameter rifle bullets where they can't get the bolt fully closed due either to lack of freebore or the lead-in angle.

Good to know. That kinda puts a damper on me building one. Not a lot of good 9mm bullet choices for loading that cartridge. No way I want a build that I'm forced to use factory ammunition or load "pistol" bullets.

[cowboybart]

2.5 years ago I had an AR barrel made for what was called a 357 AR back then. I spec'ed a .358 1:14 twist barrel. The only problem I have is trying to find 180 gr bullets. Speer makes a good one for plinking, but I have never liked Speers for terminal performance. Hornady discontinued their Single Shot Pistol bullet and those that thought ahead and hoarded them are selling their stash now at a very nice premium. 200 gr bullets will work but have to be seated rather deeply. In a bolt gun you won't have to seat them so deep and can use a more blunt nose bullet.
I use 357 Max load data but I never chrono-ed it

[J.Baker]

Good to know. That kinda puts a damper on me building one. Not a lot of good 9mm bullet choices for loading that cartridge. No way I want a build that I'm forced to use factory ammunition or load "pistol" bullets.

I probably should have elaborated a little more in my previous post.

From my limited understanding (remember, I've only done a little reading on this and am by no means an expert on the cartridge), it seems initially there was a slight difference in the cartridge specs and the reamer specs. If you look at the drawings in the link I provided you will notice that the SAAMI spec was issued on 1/21/2019 and then revised on 4/9/2019. I'm not sure what was revised though.

As far as I can tell, all the factory loads are using .357" diameter bullets. Winchester has made available their 145gr FMJ bullets (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/102152540) and 180gr Power-Point bullets (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021525515) for reloaders, which are .357" diameter. Most of the .35cal rifle bullets (.358" dia.) are 200gr and up in weight which may also require a faster twist rate. Given the .350 Legend essentially runs out of gas at around 250 yards with the 180-grain and down bullets, I really doubt you'd see much benefit from the heavier bullets.

What I would recommend is 1) do as much reading as you can online, and 2) talk to a couple different barrel makers offering this chambering and let them know you wand to be able to shoot .358" rifle bullets so they can best advise you. There should be a decent amount of information out there from actual owners and reloaders of this round to help you make a more informed decision.

Things like this are generally why I don't rush out to jump on the bandwagon when new cartridges come out. I like to let everyone else be the guinea pigs for the first year or two to iron out the kinks. It also lets me get a good feel on whether or not it's going to be a lasting cartridge or just a flash in the pan that fades fast after the novelty of it being new wears off.

[GaCop]

I probably should have elaborated a little more in my previous post.

From my limited understanding (remember, I've only done a little reading on this and am by no means an expert on the cartridge), it seems initially there was a slight difference in the cartridge specs and the reamer specs. If you look at the drawings in the link I provided you will notice that the SAAMI spec was issued on 1/21/2019 and then revised on 4/9/2019. I'm not sure what was revised though.

As far as I can tell, all the factory loads are using .357" diameter bullets. Winchester has made available their 145gr FMJ bullets (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/102152540) and 180gr Power-Point bullets (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021525515) for reloaders, which are .357" diameter. Most of the .35cal rifle bullets (.358" dia.) are 200gr and up in weight which may also require a faster twist rate. Given the .350 Legend essentially runs out of gas at around 250 yards with the 180-grain and down bullets, I really doubt you'd see much benefit from the heavier bullets.

What I would recommend is 1) do as much reading as you can online, and 2) talk to a couple different barrel makers offering this chambering and let them know you wand to be able to shoot .358" rifle bullets so they can best advise you. There should be a decent amount of information out there from actual owners and reloaders of this round to help you make a more informed decision.

Things like this are generally why I don't rush out to jump on the bandwagon when new cartridges come out. I like to let everyone else be the guinea pigs for the first year or two to iron out the kinks. It also lets me get a good feel on whether or not it's going to be a lasting cartridge or just a flash in the pan that fades fast after the novelty of it being new wears off.

The Legend isn't a total "no go" at this point. I plan on discussing a barrel with X-Caliber and will mention what you suggested. I have been reading all I can find on the internet and will continue to search.

[Crazy888]

Winchester bullets thus far have been micing at .355" diameter. I pulled and measured the 145 FMJs myself and a friend of mine measure a couple 180gr power-points. All we're at .355"

[Crazy888]

As to the issue with using .358 diameter bullets, it appears PTG has addressed that with a custom reamer; "358-AR Chamber Reamer (350 Legend necked up for 358 bullets)"

[GaCop]

[QUOTE=Crazy888;459499]As to the issue with using .358 diameter bullets, it appears PTG has addressed that with a custom reamer; "358-AR Chamber Reamer (350 Legend necked up for 358 bullets)"[/QUOTE

Good to know, thanks.

[steve101610]

The only issue with .358” bullets is with Winchester brass. The neck thickness is .013” but with stat line brass it is .011”. I reload speer 180 hotcors that I run through a lee .356” sizing die and have zero chambering issues in my x-caliber barrel. I also load fury 180s and they shoot less than half MOA out to 350 yards at an average of 2365fps. It is a fun and very accurate cartridge.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190813/d6e72deba23a3e20b0afaddd2dd56773.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190813/680fbbf82f0a87ef78525487d348804f.jpg


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[micky_blue]

The only issue with .358” bullets is with Winchester brass. The neck thickness is .013” but with stat line brass it is .011”. I reload speer 180 hotcors that I run through a lee .356” sizing die and have zero chambering issues in my x-caliber barrel. I also load fury 180s and they shoot less than half MOA out to 350 yards at an average of 2365fps. It is a fun and very accurate cartridge.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190813/d6e72deba23a3e20b0afaddd2dd56773.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190813/680fbbf82f0a87ef78525487d348804f.jpg


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What stock is that?

[steve101610]

What stock is that?

McMillan A-5


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[tomme boy]

The reason for the 0.355" bullets was they needed a taper in the case to aid in extraction. Also the reason for the larger web for the rebated rim.

And ALL bullets that are factory loaded are 0.355" Win and Federal and Hornady. That was the way it is designed. Saami spec allows for a 0.003" +- tolerance. So that is the reason they are allowed in most states that have a straight wall only cartridge rule for deer hunting.

I am using several lead bullets and having some good and bad. Lilgun powder which seems like everyone is using is a very unstable powder just like H110 is. They go from a nice round primer to blown in a .5gr increase. I am getting right at 1.25" at 100yds with the Lee 200gr bullet. I am going to be using different powders as I do not like how lilgun behaves. 5744 in the next range trip.

And this is in a AR platform. 16" BCA barrel. Spikes upper. Toolcraft BCG.

[Savagebrother]

i think ill stay with 375 winchester or 38-55 winchester. i had a savage model 170 pump rifle in 30-30 rechambered and bored to 375 winchester. it shoots sierra 200gr pointed flat points at 2350 FPS at just under an inch all day long. which brings me to my biggest concern with the 350 legend ??? no crimp on the bullet and head spacing a rifle bullet on the case mouth- come on this is a rifle caliber. they need to print in large lettering "NOT FOR GUNS WITH TUBE MAGAZINES PERIOD" i can guarantee someone will try to make it work in a lever gun.
ever seen what happens when someone lets their brass get too long on an acp pistol case???? it crimps the whole thing in the chamber at the rifling. most times you get a hard kick from the over pressure, but i have seen it crack the locking lugs on 1911's, think what will happen with a rifle caliber?? i think we should pressure the DNR's to approve the 35 remington. its been doing it since 1908 and it handles bigger bullets too. it has just enough shoulder to headspace on literally. wheel was invented on this one a long time ago we need to let our voices be heard. explain to them that the 45/70 gov is a 1,000 yard target round!!!!
SB
next to 45/70
https://i.imgur.com/A5jKrKX.jpg
savage 170
https://i.imgur.com/hfhAObg.jpg

[bsekf]

The 350 is a "rimless" 357 Max.. Use the same reloading info. It is a good 200 yard deer rifle. I have had good luck with the 140 Hornady Flex tip bullet and it shoots MOA. Granddaughter has taken a half dozen deer and 2 coyotes with it.

Bill

[J.Baker]

i think ill stay with 375 winchester or 38-55 winchester. i had a savage model 170 pump rifle in 30-30 rechambered and bored to 375 winchester. it shoots sierra 200gr pointed flat points at 2350 FPS at just under an inch all day long. which brings me to my biggest concern with the 350 legend ??? no crimp on the bullet and head spacing a rifle bullet on the case mouth- come on this is a rifle caliber. they need to print in large lettering "NOT FOR GUNS WITH TUBE MAGAZINES PERIOD" i can guarantee someone will try to make it work in a lever gun.
ever seen what happens when someone lets their brass get too long on an acp pistol case???? it crimps the whole thing in the chamber at the rifling. most times you get a hard kick from the over pressure, but i have seen it crack the locking lugs on 1911's, think what will happen with a rifle caliber?? i think we should pressure the DNR's to approve the 35 remington. its been doing it since 1908 and it handles bigger bullets too. it has just enough shoulder to headspace on literally. wheel was invented on this one a long time ago we need to let our voices be heard. explain to them that the 45/70 gov is a 1,000 yard target round!!!!
SB



I think what happened here was in such a rush to get the .350 Legend to market that they really didn't think things through very well. Looking at the design and decisions made just raises more questions than answers when trying to understand why they made it the way they did.

1. Why .355" bullets and bore spec's? It's a rifle cartridge, use .358" rifle bullet diam. and bore specs to maximize selection of existing bullets. Instead we now have a very limited number of bullet options that aren't pistol bullets.

2. Why didn't they make it a belted case rather than relying on headspacing off the case mouth? Belted straight wall cases like the .450 Marlin are legal here in Ohio, and I assume it is in Michigan, Indiana, Illinois and Iowa as well (or could easily be made legal by adding them to the list of allowed cartridges with a little pressure from hunters and the industry).

I have requested a new 110 Hog Hunter in .350 Legend to review and hope to receive it in the next week or so with any luck (want to have the review up by Nov 1st if possible since firearms season opens mid-November in a couple states). What I'm most interested in is seeing what they did for a magazine and how well it feeds as feeding seems to be Savage's Achilles Heel lately when introducing new cartridges (.450 Bushmaster and .224 Valkyrie to name a few examples).


Regarding the .375 Win.: Who do we have to bribe or kill to get Hornady to bring back the .225gr SP bullets? I've eyeballed the newer 250gr GMX bullets, but being a solid I just don't know how they'd expand on deer sized game at .375 Win velocities. The .430 B.C. of the GMX would be nice to have though.

[Savagebrother]

J.Baker (http://www.savageshooters.com/member.php?3-J-Baker), i agree, but i think the lack of bullets in 375 Winchester is because it fell by the weigh side was lack of users. it came out at a bad time and the confusion over it and the 38-55 win helped send it to the back burner. now jump ahead to recent times and people find that stiff 45/70 loads hurt to shoot during long range times. now everyone's looking for easy on the shoulder cartridges. also finding out that the 38-55 was/is a target cartridge capable of great accuracy. so here we arrive at 375 win which is a souped up 38-55!!! much faster and retains the former's accuracy, and is so much easier on the shoulder. biggest plus it shoots much heavier bullets, especially cast bullets, 250grs all the way up to 330gr monsters!! so these cartridges can handle anything in the usa and there's plenty of brass and i think these will get more popular as time goes by which i hope will bring out more bullets in these.
SB

[GaCop]

I picked up 6 empty 350 Legend cases at the club range yesterday. When I got home, I tried sliding a .357 bullet into the case, no go. Next tried a 9mm bullet and it was very hard to push that bullet into the case? I don't know what rifle these cases were fired in but they sure are tight!

[Savagebrother]

Thread Starter, you said it right when it comes to the 350 legend - i don't know???????
SB

[tomme boy]

The bore specs are the same when it comes to 9mm and 357mag/38spec. .355/.346 They all use the same bore dimensions. The throat and chamber is where the difference lies. They all use the same bore an groove.