Will 77 grain bullets stabilize in a 1:9 twist barrel?

[Txhillbilly]

I shoot a lot of the 75 gr Hornady Match,and Sierra 77 gr SMK's out of my old 12 FLVSS with a 1-9 twist,they shoot great. But,I have never been able to push the 75 gr Hornady A-Max or the newer ELD's fast enough to stabilize for good groups,so I just built a 22 Creedmoor to shoot those bullets.

[varget204]

Have you shot them at distance to see if they are still stable ?

[yobuck]

Have you shot them at distance to see if they are still stable ?

My question would be what’s the point to all this?
I can understand where rules would require a certain caliber or cartridge be used, but otherwise?
The very best 1000 yd benchrest shooters aren’t all using 6mm cartridges for example.
And some who do don’t always use them, depending on conditions.
But if 75% are, does it not make sense that that caliber should win?
So why doesn’t it? At least always?
And as for conditions, go to a match and see how the best of them deal with that, regardless of cartridge.
For the average guy who only cares about reaching out to touch something, say a prairie dog, its best to take about 3 different guns along
and forget about the heavy bullets for the 223.

[charlie b]

As I stated, the point is that some of us are having better results with the 77gn SMK bullets (rather than 69gn SMKs) in our Savage barrels, at the distances and velocities we shoot at. Nothing more.

The only reason this has come up is because Sierra says they should not work, so the posts are more of an FYI to others who might not otherwise try them.

There is no claim of anything else. And they are not hunting bullets, just for paper. And no one is claiming they are a good choice out to 1000yd. I will be trying them at that range just for grins, but, I do not expect much.

And, yes, there was at least one person using these for 600yd informal competitiom shooting and doing well with it.


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[yobuck]

As I stated, the point is that some of us are having better results with the 77gn SMK bullets (rather than 69gn SMKs) in our Savage barrels, at the distances and velocities we shoot at. Nothing more.

The only reason this has come up is because Sierra says they should not work, so the posts are more of an FYI to others who might not otherwise try them.

There is no claim of anything else. And they are not hunting bullets, just for paper. And no one is claiming they are a good choice out to 1000yd. I will be trying them at that range just for grins, but, I do not expect much.

And, yes, there was at least one person using these for 600yd informal competitiom shooting and doing well with it.


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Well fact is i shoot 69 gr SMK bullets in a factory Savage 9 twist barrel also.
But in a 22x250 AI, not a 223, and they shoot as well as i can shoot them.
Would it be worth my time seeing if 77 gr might shoot as well or better?
Well too each his own, but not in my opinion.
I can see myself using the real heavy 22 caliber bullets in a hot rod wildcat like a 22x243, but without the powder what’s the point?
As for SMKs not being a hunting bullet, don’t be betting anything you cant afford to lose on that, because you for sure will lose it.
Same goes for most if not all the other so called match bullets.
Another little secret as it pertains to (ahem) precision reloading, and factory guns like Savage.
All my SMK (match) bullets come to me in jars, like rinsed out empty large peanut butter jars.
Reason is they are all seconds, sold by the pound at the Sierra store.
Would you like to know what the Sierra employee shooters use?
I mean if they are seconds, are they still SMKs? Why not just trash them and start over?
So lets be sure we get the powder charge to the exact 1/10 of a grain here folks, and the velocity
cant vary by even 5 FPS if we want real accuracy. Lol
Much has to do with mind over matter, and it only matters to those of us who mind.
The main reason I make myself unpopular for saying these things other than it being what i think, is that it would be very easy for the new shooters who haven’t the experience level as yet to be convinced that all this is normal and necessary in the name of accuracy.
Fact is it isn’t, and far from it, at least for the vast majority of us.

[hamiltonkiler]

Well fact is i shoot 69 gr SMK bullets in a factory Savage 9 twist barrel also.
But in a 22x250 AI, not a 223, and they shoot as well as i can shoot them.
Would it be worth my time seeing if 77 gr might shoot as well or better?
Well too each his own, but not in my opinion.
I can see myself using the real heavy 22 caliber bullets in a hot rod wildcat like a 22x243, but without the powder what’s the point?
As for SMKs not being a hunting bullet, don’t be betting anything you cant afford to lose on that, because you for sure will lose it.
Same goes for most if not all the other so called match bullets.
Another little secret as it pertains to (ahem) precision reloading, and factory guns like Savage.
All my SMK (match) bullets come to me in jars, like rinsed out empty large peanut butter jars.
Reason is they are all seconds, sold by the pound at the Sierra store.
Would you like to know what the Sierra employee shooters use?
I mean if they are seconds, are they still SMKs? Why not just trash them and start over?
So lets be sure we get the powder charge to the exact 1/10 of a grain here folks, and the velocity
cant vary by even 5 FPS if we want real accuracy. Lol
Much has to do with mind over matter, and it only matters to those of us who mind.
The main reason I make myself unpopular for saying these things other than it being what i think, is that it would be very easy for the new shooters who haven’t the experience level as yet to be convinced that all this is normal and necessary in the name of accuracy.
Fact is it isn’t, and far from it, at least for the vast majority of us.

Well spoken.
Who doesn’t want the best performance of what they have. I would jump straight to a 300 if that was the case. But In my opinion nothing is more fun than shooting the light recoiling .223/ 5.56 cartridge. And talking price point and shooting at mid range.


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[charlie b]

Well fact is i shoot 69 gr SMK bullets in a factory Savage 9 twist barrel also.
But in a 22x250 AI, not a 223, and they shoot as well as i can shoot them.....................
The main reason I make myself unpopular for saying these things other than it being what i think, is that it would be very easy for the new shooters who haven’t the experience level as yet to be convinced that all this is normal and necessary in the name of accuracy.
Fact is it isn’t, and far from it, at least for the vast majority of us.

I guess you miss my point too.

The 77gn bullets shoot better than the 69gn for me in my .223 Axis.

If you don't want to try them then don't. Does not matter to me. I am glad you are happy with what you shoot.

[mikeinco]

you see why he is on my ignore list.
cannot stay on topic...223/9 twist and 77's
thinks he is better than you because of it.
just an old man lost to the real world.
even the boss noticed his misdirection in a 223 thread.


I guess you miss my point too.

The 77gn bullets shoot better than the 69gn for me in my .223 Axis.

If you don't want to try them then don't. Does not matter to me. I am glad you are happy with what you shoot.

[yobuck]

Look Charlie my comments have nothing to do with whatever bullets you or anyone else want to use.
What ever works well for you works well, what’s to argue about that?
My point was probably missed by you and no doubt others.
A 69 gr bullet, or a 77 gr bullet wont change or improve a 223 anymore than adding 10 ply tires will improve a 1/2 ton pickup.
It’s still a half ton pickup and always will be. You want more truck, buy a 1 ton pickup.
Being an expert at tuning the 1/2 ton, is akin to precision reloading a Win Mag for 2000 yd shooting.
Or 77 gr bullets in a 223 for 1000 yd.
I doubt you will achieve more accuracy with a 223 by using heavy bullets in them regardless of how you load.
As recently say 1990 we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
Mainly of coarse because there was no internet and sites like this for us to discuss things.
There were also no places where one could go to determine cartridge performance from their Lazy Boy chair.
There is but one thing that has changed the dynamics of long range shooting and hunting.
And it has nothing to do with accurate reloading, high BC bullets, or Lazy Boy chairs.
It’s the only reason we can even be having conversations about shooting any cartridge with whatever bullet at the distances we’ve been discussing. That of coarse is the modern day scopes and mounts.
But because we can, does that also mean its a good thing?
Well i guess a 1/2 ton pickup will always be the most popular, so I’ve probably answered my own question.

[hamiltonkiler]

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/special-forces-to-civilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/99098

I’m no scientist but I can read. Sometimes I read things a couple times. I have found that at 600+ yds in a 1-9 barrel you will find no better bullet than the 77gn smk. In a .223 casing or a 5.56 casing.
I’m not talking built guns or crazy cartridges.
A stock gun that ammo is available everywhere, anyone can shoot it.

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[tomme boy]

None of the heavy tipped bullets are going to be stable in a 1-9. They are just too long to stabilize. Some guns have a hard time with Hornady 68gr also because of the length.

Sierra is a shorter, fatter bullet. That is why it stabilizes. Weight alone is not the single factor. You have to add the length.

[yobuck]

Well i cant speak for that, but my guess would be that it has something to do with energy, and knock down power.
I doubt very much they are encouraging the use of that cartridge for long range sniping.
But with regard to that have you read the book written by the Seal sniper Chris Kyle prior to his being killed?
You wont be learning much about shooting or ballistics or get any real insite as to how they, Seal snipers, prepare for a shot.
But you will get his opinion on which of his numerous issued guns he preferred to use and why, and how he personally prepared for a shot.
You might be surprised to learn that his average kill was at a distance of 400 yds. His favorite gun was his 300 Win Mag with the Nightforce
Scope dialed to 400 yds and not changed regardless of the distance. He simply held up or down as the distance required.
With the Win Mag, perfect hits weren’t much of a requirement.
For the very few extreme distance shots he took, he used his issued 338 Lapua.
So while we sit here in our Lazy Boys discussing this stuff, those who are actually doing it might have different opinions.
Yes you can dial a scope to allow for reaching distances beyond that for which any cartridge was designed to be shot.
With perfect conditions, and good shooting you might even have a decent result,
But in 15 minits from now it might be that you cant hit anything.
Which is why the 1000 yd heavy gun world 10 shot record has been stuck at about where it is for about 30 + years.
But eventually, somebody always wins the lottery.

[charlie b]

So, yes, this is just about the finding that the 77SMK's (and in CFJunkies case the TMK's) do stabilize in the Savage 1:9 barrels at moderate ranges, AND, they seem to be a bit more accurate for some of us than the other offerings out there. NOTHING ELSE.

For someone else who wants to play with their Savage .223 it is information for them to consider.

None of us claim them to be able to turn a .223 into a magic long range cartridge.

[yobuck]

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/special-forces-to-civilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/99098

I’m no scientist but I can read. Sometimes I read things a couple times. I have found that at 600+ yds in a 1-9 barrel you will find no better bullet than the 77gn smk. In a .223 casing or a 5.56 casing.
I’m not talking built guns or crazy cartridges.
A stock gun that ammo is available everywhere, anyone can shoot it.

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I read the article and found it to be interesting. Black Hills is a well known ammo supplier for the military, and is the brand used by Chris Kyle to establish his U S kill record.
Certainly if your in the military and have been issued a rifle requiring 5.56mm ammo you would want the best ammo available.
Likewise if your dead set on owning just one rifle for your personal enjoyment.
There were a few words in that rather long article that jumped off the page, at least for me.
Probably most would not have the same reaction as i did however.
Those words were (37.25 minits from a 100 yd zero to reach 1000 yds.
Thats 149 1/4 min. Clicks folks, count the number you have available in your scope with the mount setup you currently have.
Now just for kicks check out say a 6x284 or a 243 with 105 gr bullets, or one of the 6.5s with 140s.
Animals don’t shoot back at us, but if they did very few of us would have enough gonads to hunt them.
The few brave enough to do it would be very selective on their gun choice, and so was Chris Kyle.

[mikeinco]

any adults that read and comprehend, will note that chris kyle says in his book
that most of his kills were done with a 300 win mag basically some variation of a
mark 13 sniper rifle out of crane. the ammo for the early rifles is military 190 grain with a spec
distance of 1200 yards(now called mk248mod0). the later ammo is a mk248 mod 1, which
features a 220 smk, a federal case, h1000 powder, and a nickle mag primer. it is loaded to aprox 2800 fps
in the short bbl rifles(24") and gets more in the 26.5" bbls. accuracy spec is 1500 yards with a higher 68kpsi.
both federal and bha produced the 190 ammo, but fed got the 220 ammo contract .

[charlie b]

You guys keep pulling this further into the weeds.

[charlie b]

Up to now almost all of my shooting with the 77gn bullet has been at 100 to 300yd. Previously I have shot the 69gn SMK at 600 and had close to MOA groups but have not been able to break into the sub MOA at that range. Not bad but not great.

I have had two sessions now shooting the 77SMK at 600yd. I have been comparing IMR4166 (21.5gn) and Varget (23.5gn). There is about 100fps difference in muzzle velocity according to book load data. OAL for both is 2.28" They are very close in group sizes at 100yd with the 4166 being a little better by about 0.1" on average (my lack of shooting skill makes this small a difference kind of a wash). FYI I am shooting an Axis HB, 22" barrel in .223 with Boyd's Pro Varmint stock and Vortex 4-16 Diamonback scope. It is not pillar or glass bedded, just bolted into the stock. Shooting is from an inexpensive Caldwell bench rest with a bag at the rear, and a mediocre shooter ;)

The first session was with 4166. At 600yd 5rounds went into 7". No wind at all on that day. At 100yd that same day I had two 5rnd groups of 0.4" and 0.6". Group size at 600 was such that it made me wonder if the bullets were stable. I figured it should be well under MOA.

Today I had the Varget load set up at 100, 400, 500 and 600yd. Wind started light then went to a little gusty, 6-9mph at 45deg to the bullet path. At 400yd and light wind 4 rnds went into a 1.8" group. At 500 yd and light wind 5rnds went into a 3.5" group. At 600yd the wind had picked up. I held off by 6" to account for the wind. The horizontal group size was 5.2". The vertical group size was 2.7". At 100yd with the gusty wind I had three 5rnd groups of 0.4, 0.8 and 0.9".

I was not trying to figure out the gusts of wind. At our range it may be a low point in the turbulence at the bench but the wind flags show significant wind ast range. I set my wind hold at a 'median' point and shoot a string, without waiting for a 'calm' point. I know this is not a good technique but I am a relative novice to wind doping at medium and longer range.

So, for me at least, I will venture a guess that the 77gn bullet is stabilized out to 600yd. Is it stable further out? According to theory it should be stable as long as it is supersonic, which for this load is just beyond 1000yd. I will shoot it at 1000 just for grins but that is not my goal. My goal is to have an accurate shooter at 600yd and so far the 77 SMK's are working the best.

[CFJunkie]

Nice work, charlie b.
Thanks for the good reporting.

Shooting in a brisk wind with a relatively light bullet is really challenging.

[charlie b]

Thanks. I don't mind a steady wind but when it is turbulent it is a pain ;)

[yobuck]

Thanks. I don't mind a steady wind but when it is turbulent it is a pain ;)

Well Charlie i’ll Stick my head out of the weeds again just long enough to say there may be ways to deal with that.
As Yogi would say, when you come to a fork in the road, take it. Lol
If you were to visit the website for “the original 1000 yd benchrest club”, commonly referred to as the Williamsport club, you can look at the equipment list of the various shooters as for gun and scope, as well as the name of the gunsmith who built the gun.
Remember, that club was the first in the world to shoot bench rest matches at 1000 yds.
There were no rules applying to it at that time so they made up their own.
Thats now been over 50 years ago, and although there have become quite a few other 1000 yd clubs around the country, most of them run under NBRSA rules.
But not Williamsport, and i believe one or two others. They shoot ten shots for record regardless of wether it’s light or heavy gun, which would be the main difference in rules.
If you were to check the stats of the “world open shoot” held in July, you would find that by far the most popular cartridge used today is the 6mm Dasher. And you will also find that a very high percentage of the ones used in that match were built by the same gunsmith.
Beyond that, many of those shoot the same load using the same brand custom bullets.
Point is, there really isn’t much difference separating many of the shooters as for equipment and/or ability.
But there can be a major difference in the shooting conditions during the time frame of the relay they were drawn for.
So, that means it can actually come down to the luck of the draw, or the lottery if you will to a very large degree as to who wins and who doesn’t.
BUT, people being people, and always looking for ways to improve their own chances, have developed ways of dealing with it at least to a degree. The big thing that evolved as a result, is beating the wind, And that requires shooting ten single loaded shots asap, like in less than a minit.
And in order to accomplish that, it requires a very expensive joy stick controlled front rest along with lots of practice.
But of coarse that could lead to questions about the best gun, load, shooter, etc. couldn’t it?
Have we become better? Or better at beating the system? I guess it makes little difference if the goal is winning.
Again Charlie, you may well be at a fork in the road.


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