Seeking advice on brass cleaning with my new Harbor Freight tumbler and pins

[J.Baker]

:pop2:

[mikeinco]

the couple of previous posts by ed may explain why he is on my ignore list on every forum that i see him on.
he cannot fix a simple problem
he can find that the sidewinder is out of production,
BUT
CANNOT SEE ITS RCBS REPLACEMENT
a 60 rpm machine
nor can he see the thumblers 40 rpm machine.( a copy of the machine he is using!)

ohhh and the" Chinese Harbor Freight 3400 RPM rock tumbler" comment, is the motor speed, NOT THE DRUM SPEED.

[bigedp51]

Below is a Google search on "case mouth peening" and it is a commom problem. The pins do not have enough mass to peen the case mouth, the problem is caused by the cases hitting the softer annealed case mouth. You can not stop the cases from hitting the case mouth and all you can do is lessen the effect. You can do this by adding more pins and not overloading the tumbler with too many cases that requires more tumbling time. And again I trim my cases each time I wet tumble to cleanup the case mouth and remove any peening.

Now read all the problems people are having with case mouth peening at the links below and the fixes. You will also find that most competitive shooters will not wet tumble their cases because of the case mouth peening.

https://www.google.com/search?q=case+mouth+peening&ei=r1g3XbyUBISo_Qa_9pSYDA&start=0&sa=N&ved=0ahUKEwj8p9Wn3MvjAhUEVN8KHT87BcM4ChDy0wMIhAE&biw=1366&bih=612

My STM high speed tumbler instructions tells you to tumble the cases for 2 to 4 hours. And this is far too long and caused the case mouth peening at the link below.And these same instructions tell you to pre-tumble the pins to wear down their sharp cut ends.

Read post #17 below, I got 11 likes for my first post, and no one put me on their ignore list.

Brass much thicker right by neck?

https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/brass-much-thicker-right-by-neck.220661/

(http://www.texas-mac.com/Removing_Case_Peened_LIp_Edge.html)

(http://www.texas-mac.com/Removing_Case_Peened_LIp_Edge.html)

[Bill2905]

It's been an interesting discussion here over the past several days and I thank you all for your comments and advice. I originally set out to try a new cleaning method that would eliminate the dust and grit that dry tumbling left on my otherwise shiny polished cases. Initially, I didn't like the somewhat rough look of the brass case bodies after wet tumbling. Tumbling the pins by themselves and with scrap brass has reduced that problem by presumably dulling down the sharp ends. I didn't notice until you guys brought it up that my case mouths also got peened. Not terribly but still noticeable enough to bother me.

I will keep experimenting in search of the best wet tumbling solution. In the meantime, I'm going back to dry tumbling and maybe will try washing the dust off of them and then towel drying like I learned to do with the wet tumbler.

[Texas10]

You answered your own question, your expensive and discontinued RCBS Sidewinder tumbler is "slow speed" and could be used with dry or wet media. So please tell us how to fix the problems and not the symptoms with all the other higher speed tumblers on the market. You are not offering any advice on how to fix any tumbling problem.

Below is the OPs $54.99 Chinese Harbor Freight 3400 RPM rock tumbler, please tell him with all your expert advice on how to fix his problem tumbling brass cartridge cases.


Big Ed, I know you probably didn't mean to write 3400 RPM, mine probably turns at about 30 rpm. And the rubber drum has smooooooth, round sides with no internal baffles or square shapes that toss or agitate the load. This contributes to smoother tumbling action. I can hear the brass banging against the sides a bit but other than that, it's pretty quiet.

I do tend to load more media than others might. Worked in a machine shop for many years, and we used a tumbler for de-burring parts. In my experience, adding more media solves many issues, especially with softer metal parts.

[mikeinco]

3400 is THE LISTED SPEED( FOR THE MOTOR) not the drum....


Big Ed, I know you probably didn't mean to write 3400 RPM, mine probably turns at about 30 rpm. And the rubber drum has smooooooth, round sides with no internal baffles or square shapes that toss or agitate the load. This contributes to smoother tumbling action. I can hear the brass banging against the sides a bit but other than that, it's pretty quiet.

I do tend to load more media than others might. Worked in a machine shop for many years, and we used a tumbler for de-burring parts. In my experience, adding more media solves many issues, especially with softer metal parts.

[bigedp51]

The drum speed of my STM model B high speed tumbler is approximately 60 rpm and the motor is 1550 rpm.

You can "NOT" stop the cases from hitting each other in these wet tumblers. All you can do is try to dampen how hard the cases hit each other and reduce the tumbling time.

I added more stainless steel media and put less brass in the tumbler and tumble for less time.

And all anyone needs to do is take a digital closeup macro photo of the case mouth to see the case mouth peening.


http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/thumlersep01.jpg

Closeup macro photos show a lot of detail, below is a brand new RCBS expander. And anyone who tells you they do not have a case mouth peening problem needs to to take a closeup macro photo of their case mouth. In one of the links I posted someone measured the tumbling time and how much thicker the case mouth became from peening.

https://i.imgur.com/5Rqdvuh.jpg

Below just using the RCBS media separator below can ding and dent the soft case mouths separating corn cob or walnut media. So just think what happens in a wet tumbler when the cases tumble for a hour or more.

http://rcbs.com/getattachment/Products/Case-Preparation/Case-Cleaning/Rotary-Case-Media-Separator/rc_87076_rotarycasemediaseparater_l.jpg.aspx?maxsi desize=700

[mikeinco]

and the bs continues and continues

in the real world, the brass is in a slurry of pins and water.
in a slow speed rotating drum.
the brass and slurry HIT nothing.
there is next to no VELOCITY in the brass movement in the pin water slurry.


if you have brass "hitting" brass and causing damage, you have to much speed,
or too much brass, or too little water/pin slurry.

we have a poster that believes volume of posting, charts and graphs, and color pictures
over rides facts. he is never wrong.
but i have a limit on replies to such people and this is it.

[J.Baker]

and the bs continues and continues

in the real world, the brass is in a slurry of pins and water.
in a slow speed rotating drum.
the brass and slurry HIT nothing.
there is next to no VELOCITY in the brass movement in the pin water slurry.


if you have brass "hitting" brass and causing damage, you have to much speed,
or too much brass, or too little water/pin slurry.

we have a poster that believes volume of posting, charts and graphs, and color pictures
over rides facts. he is never wrong.
but i have a limit on replies to such people and this is it.

This keeps up I'm going to have to change the topic of this thread to "Pot Meets Kettle." :rofl:

[mikeinco]

no i am done.
but for those interested i did get this from harbor freight this morning:

"Good morning Michael,


Per our conversation, here is what I able to get about the speed.
The drum turns at 45-50 RPMS.


Sincerely,

Product Support Harbor Freight Tools "

[JeepsAndGuns]

I bought one of the sonic cleaners from harbor freight and used some of the FA cleaning solution. I have found it works surprisingly well. The only annoyance is the very short time setting on the HF sonic cleaner. I have to turn it back on every few min. Also the heater does not regulate, it just keeps heating up until the internal overheat circuit kicks in and shuts off the whole machine until it cools. I plan on buying a better quality sonic cleaner in the near future after I move.

I have found sonic cleaning then finishing it off with a trip through the regular green corncob makes the brass look new, with no peening or sandblasting appearance.

[bigedp51]

I bought one of the sonic cleaners from harbor freight and used some of the FA cleaning solution. I have found it works surprisingly well. The only annoyance is the very short time setting on the HF sonic cleaner. I have to turn it back on every few min. Also the heater does not regulate, it just keeps heating up until the internal overheat circuit kicks in and shuts off the whole machine until it cools. I plan on buying a better quality sonic cleaner in the near future after I move.

I have found sonic cleaning then finishing it off with a trip through the regular green corncob makes the brass look new, with no peening or sandblasting appearance.

I ordered the sonic cleaner at the link below and it is the generic version of the Lyman sonic cleaner. Each cleaning cycle is 8 miniuts long and 4 cycles cleaned my .44 special brass. It helps to fill the sonic cleaner with hot tap water to speed up the unit getting up to proper temperature.

The cases do not have the "bling" of a wet tumbled cases but the inside of the case and the primer pockets were clean and free of carbon. The best part about sonic cleaning is you do not have any dry media dust or case mouth peening.

Bottom line, the best part about reloading is the person pulling the press handle decides how to do it.

Signed
Not sure if I'm the "Pot or the Kettle." :rolleyes:

And case mouth peening is not a myth.

https://i.imgur.com/CIxnlIW.jpg

https://www.amazon.com/iSonic%C2%AE-Professional-Ultrasonic-Cleaner-P4820-WPT/dp/B009B2BIKY/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?keywords=iSonic%C2%AE+Professiona l+Grade+Ultrasonic+Cleaner+P4820-WPB+with+Heater+and+Digital+Timer%2C+Plastic+Baske t&qid=1563997563&s=electronics&sr=8-2-fkmr0




(https://www.amazon.com/iSonic%C2%AE-Professional-Ultrasonic-Cleaner-P4820-WPT/dp/B009B2BIKY/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?keywords=iSonic%C2%AE+Professiona l+Grade+Ultrasonic+Cleaner+P4820-WPB+with+Heater+and+Digital+Timer%2C+Plastic+Baske t&qid=1563997563&s=electronics&sr=8-2-fkmr0)

[bigedp51]

http://www.texas-mac.com/Case_Cleaning_Ultrasonic_vs_Tumbler_with_Ceramic_M edia_and_Stainless_Steel_Pins.html
Case Lip Peening
After cleaning a batch of .40-65 cases with the tumbler and SS pins, it became
clear that the lip or edge of the case mouths were expanding (flaring out and
rolling over in both directions, but mostly to the inside) as much as 0.004” wider
than normal due to a peening effect which I had not noticed earlier when cleaning
the handgun cases. And peening had never been a problem when using ceramic
media in the tumbler – more on this later. To determine if the water level in the
tumbler was a factor affecting the amount of agitation and the rate of peening, a
short experiment was conducted with two batches of 25 new .45-70 cases. One
test batch was with the water level only covering the pins (low-water test). The
2nd test batch was with the tumbler filled with water to within 1” of the top. The
case lips were peened in both tests, but to a lesser degree with the tumbler
almost full.
Note: Closely inspecting the previously cleaned handgun cases indicated the lips
were peened which I had overlooked at the time.

After reporting the test results on a couple of BPCR discussions forums, some
shooters responded that the peening was due to using stainless pins with
Thumler’s high speed 3,000 rpm motor, the motor installed on my tumbler. The
slow speed (1,550 rpm) motor was recommended to eliminate peening.

The slow speed motor was ordered and installed and the worse-case low-water
test was repeated. It quickly became clear that peening was not eliminated but
was significantly reduced. Further testing indicated the slow speed motor
resulted in less drum noise and required more run time to clean cases, neither of
which was a surprise.

Later, I ran the same tests as above but with 7 lbs of Dave's Maurer's large
ceramic media with 50 .40-65 Rem. cases in a Thumler's Model B with the hi-
speed 3000 rpm motor. Several case lip thicknesses were measured with the
measurement locations identified. Measurements were taken at 2 hr increments
over 6 hrs. The drum was filled with water to just over the media and brass, so
the drum was a little over half full. No measurable peening was detected, but
read on.

Sometime later, after annealing the case necks, peening was evident with ceramic
media. Annealing apparently softens the necks sufficiently for peening to result
even if using ceramic media. Following the purchase of a very nice annealing
machine I now anneal cases prior to every reloading and have noted an increased
rate of case lip peening, but believe the benefits of annealing are greater than the
negatives associated with lip peening.

Due to additional testing there’s no question in my mind that peening is definitely
due to rotary tumbling. And the rate of peening is determined by several factors:
brass softness, rotational speed of the tumbler, type of media, how full the
tumbler is loaded, how long the dirty brass was soaked prior to tumbling and
finally the tumbler run time. If someone tumbling brass with ceramic or stainless
media does not believe peening is taking place then they have not measured the
lip width close enough before and after removing the brass from the tumbler. The
slight rolled over edge may not be sufficient to cause a problem or shorten the
cases appreciably, but one cannot tumble brass with ceramic or stainless media
without some peening taking place.

[Robinhood]

Don't forget to add water softener to dampen the speed that the brass strikes each other. It is softener....right

[sharpshooter]

It's a known fact that dirty brass shoots better.......:boink:

[yobuck]

It's a known fact that dirty brass shoots better.......:boink:
Now that just proves that great minds tend to think the same way. Lol

[CFJunkie]

I have tumbled about 1/2 of the cases that I have reloaded in the last 9 years with steel pins in an tumbler filled about 3/4 full with water. I've never seen any pitting of the brass after tumbling.
The other 1/2 were vibrated with dry media until the vibrator wore out after 23,000 cases. My reload count during 9 years is over 47,500.

I have not been plagued by noticeable peened case lips probably because I have turned every neck lip (inside and out) for about 2 sec. on each surface with an RCBS Trim Mate after cleaning, regardless of the whether they were cleaned by tumbling with steel pins in water or vibrating in media.
The only time I have ever had any minor issues with neck lips during reloading was one time after vibrating when I was in a rush and forgot to turn the necks.

If you go through all the case preparation steps, I don't believe it matters what you use to clean your brass.

[Bill2905]

With some experimentation and having broken in the pins, I'm getting pretty good results with approximately 50 223 cases and 1 pound of pins in the rock tumbler at one hour. I tried 2 lbs of pins with 50 cases and that resulted in at least half of the cases becoming packed with pins. It took 10-20 seconds of shaking each packed case to get all of the pins to fall out.

Regarding the cleaning solution, I'm using a couple second squirt of dish soap and about a 38 Special case full of LemiShine. My cases are coming out clean and shiny but the brass color has a tinge of brown or tea color, not the usual bright brass hue that I'm used to seeing. It's not a problem but I'm curious as to what is causing that.

In your experiences, what is the effect of using too little or too much LemiShine in the mix?

[mikeinco]

try half or less lemonshine...way too much for the little tumbler.
( i use less in my big rcbs sidewinder drums)

With some experimentation and having broken in the pins, I'm getting pretty good results with approximately 50 223 cases and 1 pound of pins in the rock tumbler at one hour. I tried 2 lbs of pins with 50 cases and that resulted in at least half of the cases becoming packed with pins. It took 10-20 seconds of shaking each packed case to get all of the pins to fall out.

Regarding the cleaning solution, I'm using a couple second squirt of dish soap and about a 38 Special case full of LemiShine. My cases are coming out clean and shiny but the brass color has a tinge of brown or tea color, not the usual bright brass hue that I'm used to seeing. It's not a problem but I'm curious as to what is causing that.

In your experiences, what is the effect of using too little or too much LemiShine in the mix?

[bigedp51]

Below are the instructions for my much larger STM tumbler and how much soap and LemiShine and the warning about too much LemiShine.

The amount of soap and LemiShine will depend on how dirty the cases are and the hardness of the water. Meaning you will need to experiment and adjust the amounts for the size of your tumblers and water harness. If the water is not sudsy at the end of tumbling you will need to add more soap.

And as you can see below only a 1/4 teaspoon of LemiShine is used for this large capacity tumbler. The main ingredient in LemiShine is citric acid that aids cleaning and adds a little bling.


https://i.imgur.com/zwAWwUI.jpg