Looking for sourcing recommendation

[Dave Hoback]

You missed that one Dave. It does look like it is shot peened though. The face is always dished. And it floats:disillusionment:.


Im sorry Robin, what did I miss? Have to forgive me on not catching on to things sometimes... but metallurgy is something I do have a firm understanding of, and I know for a FACT, that companies which produce more economical firearms DO NOT use Billet parts! Here’s a good example...think about a standard forged AR15 receiver, and one of newer, “pretty” BILLET receivers. It’s quite easy to tell them apart. Just as it’s easy to tell a Savage & PTG bolt head apart. Why is that?

[Robinhood]

Sharpshooter has spent time at the factory and from the photos i've seen he is very intimate with the process. So unless he is and has misrepresented his knowledge and understanding of this process, I would on a general principal trust what he said. But that is me. Im not a blind follower mind you and may have a different paradigm at times but Fred, at least in my opinion has not made a practice out of steering people wrong.

I like the PTG pieces and feel that in several cases they where good medicine. Also you would be surprised at how much money Howa spends on their actions compared to others.

[Dave Hoback]

I’m baggin’ what you’re rakin’ Robin. That is sound wisdom coming from you. And I’ve never mistaken you as a “blind follower”. I simply disagree, based on what I know. There is more to it also, I think. Maybe Dave Kiff could weigh in. But I digress.

I apologize, my comment was not to say Howas are “cheep”. Just that they are mass produced. And big companies ARE NOT in business to LOSE money. Howas are great actions, but they are made via drop forging or investment casting. Not by CNC machining. Now, Savage actions ARE made from bar stock. (Not the same as CNC machining). The action is round, thus turned on a lathe, and milled. But a bolt has curves which a mill/lathe combo cannot produce. 5 Axis CNC territory. Otherwise, parts like this are either forged or cast to shape, then finished machined. This why CNC’d parts have that very distinct “nicer” look to them...I.E., the difference in appearance between a Savage & PTG bolt head. Or the difference between a Savage recoil lug, which is press stamped, and a machined aftermarket lug. The knowledge I have comes from years & years of learning.....not what “a friend that worked”, or “an ATF, FBI, CIA agent” TOLD ME. :becky::becky: But, being that this is America, it’s OK if Fred & I or anyone else disagree.

[charlie b]

As an engineer we used to debate forged vs milled parts a lot. If you already have a forge and dies it is the way to go for a lot of parts. Finish milling, whether hand or CNC, was much less time, ie, less expensive. And forging does instill some interesting metallurgical properties to the material if done right.

Milling from a billet works well, but, a LOT of material is cut away. Not important if you are using inexpensive metals, but, can be an issue if it is not. It also means more time to machine all that material. These days CNC is cheaper to get started with and is why so many aftermarket parts are made from billet.

ANY machining process can create more problems if it is not done correctly, even CNC stuff. Sharp corners are one area where I find a lot of issues with some "billet" parts.

FWIW, I prefer forged and machined parts if I know they are done correctly with proper alloys.

[Robinhood]

I simply disagree, based on what I know. There is more to it also, I think. Maybe Dave Kiff could weigh in. But I digress. What do you think Dave could add to the conversation?

I apologize, my comment was not to say Howas are “cheep”. Just that they are mass produced. And big companies ARE NOT in business to LOSE money. Howas are great actions, but they are made via drop forging or investment casting. Not by CNC machining. Do you believe that CNC's are not used by Howa on their actions? Now, Savage actions ARE made from bar stock. (Not the same as CNC machining). As someone who has witnessed CNC machines with bar stock feeders while machining bar stock, I will disagree. The action is round, thus turned on a lathe, and milled. So CNC's cant machine round stock? But a bolt has curves which a mill/lathe combo cannot produce. While it would be extremely inefficient a lathe and mill operator, with the right mill could easily make a bolthead. 5 Axis CNC territory. Otherwise, parts like this are either forged or cast to shape, then finished machined. This why CNC’d parts have that very distinct “nicer” look to them...I.E., the difference in appearance between a Savage & PTG bolt head. I have produced some very nice work on a lathe and a mill. The great thing about cnc's and finishes are the on the fly tool and surface speeds available in the program. Savage uses a deburring or peening process, I don't know which, that causes the slightly beat-up finish on their boltheads. Fred could reveal this and has in another post. Or the difference between a Savage recoil lug, which is press stamped, and a machined aftermarket lug. The knowledge I have comes from years & years of learning.....not what “a friend that worked”, or “an ATF, FBI, CIA agent” TOLD ME. :becky::becky: But, being that this is America, it’s OK if Fred & I or anyone else disagree. I like to believe that when everyone understands the facts we all would agree. Some things are subjective and some things are absolute. Your experience is valuable and gives you a tight range bullshit meter. As I have gotten older and found out that there is a lot of things that I know about but only a few I could be considered an expert in, so my confidence in other people being wrong based on my experiences is not so important. Why, because I became weary of fighting battles on issues where I was not as informed as I thought I was. I still love a good argument but the younger guys and fools can have the "I'm righter than you" battles. Just the facts brother.


I have 33 years modifying metal with either a grinding machine(OD, ID, Surface, Blanchard, Planetary and Jig) or a tooling machine(Lathes, Mills, VTL's HBM's DP's) albeit in a specialized world. I live with tolerance much less than .001" everyday. I have 41years total in manufacturing environment. My BS meter is low with what I know, otherwise I listen closely. Stay humble.

[Dave Hoback]

Stay humble.

Yes, you are quite right Robin. Point taken to reflect on my friend. Regards. And thank you

[thaifighter]

:pop2:

[wbm]

Yeah me too. Think there is more than one that needs a bit of humility.

[Robinhood]

Ouch! Mom!