Loading a good long range match load in 6.5 creedmore.

[Davo308]

Looking for a good long range load in 6.5 creedmore.

For now at least, Im not so much interested in squeezing every last bit of accuracy out of reloads, but a good starter load in the 140+ grain range for out to 600+ yards.

In the future I will probably geek out about getting more accuracy but Im wanting something thats as close to plug and play as I can for now.

If possible, I'd like to be able to use the same powders for .308 and down the road 7.5 swiss.

Also, if anyone can recommend brands of dies I'd appreciate that as well. I would not be opposed to using match dies so I don't feel a need to upgrade down the road.

The rifle has a 22 inch barrel with a 1/8 twist.

I have not loaded for 6.5 creedmore before.

Any comments welcome.

[CFJunkie]

You may be asking for something that your rifle won't deliver.
I've never been able to predict what powder-bullet combination a particular rifle will like.
I have tried and generally been unsuccessful and am usually surprised when I presume what a new rifle will shoot best based on what
particular powder bullet combination one of my existing rifles prefers.


Choosing a powder that will perform well in both a 6.5mm CM and a .308 may cause you some difficulty.
All the 6.5mm CMs that I have loaded for are more accurate with powders that are a bit slower than those that my .308s like.
I have gotten great results with IMR4350 and IMR4451 Enduron with 140+ grain bullets and pretty good results with RL-17, especially with lighter bullets.
I have gotten less accuracy in my 6.5mm CMs with IMR4064, IMR 4166 Enduron, and H4895, all of which really perform great in my .308s.
Finding a powder that works well in both calibers may be challenge.
My best shooting 6.5mm CM with a 26-inch barrel probably would shoot a faster powder well enough to satisfy your initial 'plug and play' requirement.
My other 6.5mm CM with a 24-inch barrel probably wouldn't.
I don't know how your 22-inch barrel rifle will match up to either of them, but maybe you'll get lucky.

The 26-inch barrel 6.5mm CMs shoots 140 grain to 147 grain match bullets best, 140 ELD-Ms, 3 kinds of 140 Bergers, 142 SMKs and 147 ELD-Ms. The SMKs and ELD-Ms have a slight edge over the Berger bullets with that rifle. The good thing is that the ELD-Ms are cheaper and shoot great.
The other 24-inch barrel rifle shoots 130 to 140 grain match bullets best, especially the 130 Tipped Match Kings and 140 ELD-Ms.
Your desire to use 140+ bullets will depend upon your rifle.
Hopefully, your new rifle will prefer heavier bullets.

[Davo308]

You may be asking for something that your rifle won't deliver.
I've never been able to predict what powder-bullet combination a particular rifle will like.
I have tried and generally been unsuccessful and am usually surprised when I presume what a new rifle will shoot best based on what
particular powder bullet combination one of my existing rifles prefers.


Choosing a powder that will perform well in both a 6.5mm CM and a .308 may cause you some difficulty.
All the 6.5mm CMs that I have loaded for are more accurate with powders that are a bit slower than those that my .308s like.
I have gotten great results with IMR4350 and IMR4451 Enduron with 140+ grain bullets and pretty good results with RL-17, especially with lighter bullets.
I have gotten less accuracy in my 6.5mm CMs with IMR4064, IMR 4166 Enduron, and H4895, all of which really perform great in my .308s.
Finding a powder that works well in both calibers may be challenge.
My best shooting 6.5mm CM with a 26-inch barrel probably would shoot a faster powder well enough to satisfy your initial 'plug and play' requirement.
My other 6.5mm CM with a 24-inch barrel probably wouldn't.
I don't know how your 22-inch barrel rifle will match up to either of them, but maybe you'll get lucky.

The 26-inch barrel 6.5mm CMs shoots 140 grain to 147 grain match bullets best, 140 ELD-Ms, 3 kinds of 140 Bergers, 142 SMKs and 147 ELD-Ms. The SMKs and ELD-Ms have a slight edge over the Berger bullets with that rifle. The good thing is that the ELD-Ms are cheaper and shoot great.
The other 24-inch barrel rifle shoots 130 to 140 grain match bullets best, especially the 130 Tipped Match Kings and 140 ELD-Ms.
Your desire to use 140+ bullets will depend upon your rifle.
Hopefully, your new rifle will prefer heavier bullets.

Makes sense. I suppose it might be a better strategy to try and standardize 1 powder for the .308 and 7.5 swiss, and go with a different powder for the 6.5

I will look into the SMK's (had good luck with them in the past), and the ELD-M's. Maybe leaning closer to 140 grains vs 147.

Will also look into IMR 4350 if I can find it locally. Things can be very hard to find in California.

I do indeed hope the new rifle likes heavier bullets but we will see. I will include the (only) data I've seen about it.
https://forum.snipershide.com/attachments/screen-shot-2019-03-09-at-4-58-07-pm-png.7039905/

[CFJunkie]

Davo308,

You might get lucky and find a powder you have for your .308s that works well in your new 6.5mm. I wouldn't give up without trying, but I would also try at least one slower powder.


Because of the H4350 is an extreme powder with very low temperature sensitivity, I would have chosen H4350 powder, but it was impossible to find, and I had to go with IMR4350.
They are slightly different powders so you can't interchange load data. You have to develop loads separately for each.
Hodgdon only manufactures powder every 6 months so the popular extreme powders like H4350, H4895, and Varget get grabbed up as soon as they become available.
If you can find IMR4451 Enduron which is also an extreme powder and temperature insensitive, I would try that too.
IMR4451 also works to eliminate copper fouling and shoots cleaner than the older powders like IMR4350 and H435

Your bullet strategy is a good one. But remember, long distance shooting favors the high BC bullets because they retain stability longer, but that works as long as they are accurate in your rifle.

The 142 SMKs and the 140 and 147 ELD-Ms have about the same amount of bullet body touching the rifling.
They all shoot great and have very high BCs - 0.626, 0.646 and 0.697 respectively.
Any one of the three should do well and your rifle will tell you whether the 147s are the right choice for your particular barrel.

The 140 SMK has a shorter body touching the rifling and a BC of 0.535.
The 140 SMKs shoot poorly in comparison to the other three in both of my 6.5mm CMs.

I would stay away from the 140 SMKs.

The ELD-M Hornady and the three Berger 140s, Match, Long Distance, and Hybrid, all shoot much more accurately.

[Davo308]

Davo308,

You might get lucky and find a powder you have for your .308s that works well in your new 6.5mm. I wouldn't give up without trying, but I would also try at least one slower powder.


Because of the H4350 is an extreme powder with very low temperature sensitivity, I would have chosen H4350 powder, but it was impossible to find, and I had to go with IMR4350.
They are slightly different powders so you can't interchange load data. You have to develop loads separately for each.
Hodgdon only manufactures powder every 6 months so the popular extreme powders like H4350, H4895, and Varget get grabbed up as soon as they become available.
If you can find IMR4451 Enduron which is also an extreme powder and temperature insensitive, I would try that too.
IMR4451 also works to eliminate copper fouling and shoots cleaner than the older powders like IMR4350 and H435

Your bullet strategy is a good one. But remember, long distance shooting favors the high BC bullets because they retain stability longer, but that works as long as they are accurate in your rifle.

The 142 SMKs and the 140 and 147 ELD-Ms have about the same amount of bullet body touching the rifling.
They all shoot great and have very high BCs - 0.626, 0.646 and 0.697 respectively.
Any one of the three should do well and your rifle will tell you whether the 147s are the right choice for your particular barrel.

The 140 SMK has a shorter body touching the rifling and a BC of 0.535.
The 140 SMKs shoot poorly in comparison to the other three in both of my 6.5mm CMs.

I would stay away from the 140 SMKs.

The ELD-M Hornady and the three Berger 140s, Match, Long Distance, and Hybrid, all shoot much more accurately.



Copy, will keep in mind.

I generally like slower powders-they produce higher velocities and have a more gentle recoil.

Just want a good one for my goals.

In my Savage, I was happy with a .495 BC 175 grain SMK at around 2750-2800 fps.

I'd be thrilled with a .697 BC projo at a similar velocity, as long as it feeds.

Im even leaning towards 2750 fps.


How has your accuracy been with lighter bullets (130ish) at higher velocities?

[CFJunkie]

Here is a comparison of 5-round groups by bullet weight.

140 gr Hornady ELD-M - 0.347 for 208 groups (best load 0.263 @ 2651 with IMR4451)
147 gr Hornady ELD-M - 0.355 for 51 groups (best load 0.272 @ 2563 with IMR451)
140 gr Berger Match - 0.357 for 42 groups ( best load 0.270 @ 2680 with IMR4350)
130 gr Sierra TMK - 0.361 for 56 groups (best load 0.320 @ 2686 with IMR4451)
At velocities over 2700 fps - average was 0.367
At velocities between 2600 and 2700 fps - average was 0.361
At velocities below 2600 fps - average was 0.361
142 gr Sierra SMK - 0.375 for 32 groups (best load 0.276 @ 2610 with IMR4451) N150 loads really messed up this overall average.
130 gr Sierra TGK - 0.379 for 14 groups (best load 0.362 with IMR4451) All velocities over 2700 fps

140 gr Sierra SMK - 0.460 for 10 groups (best load 0.372 with IMR4350) Now you know why I said 140 SMKs don't shoot as well.

Let your rifle tell you what velocities it shoots best.
With my 26-inch 3% carbon steel barrel in my Savage 12 LRP, I find that velocities between 2650 and 2680 are optimum with 140 gr bullets.
For 130 gr bullets it is somewhat higher and with 142 and 147 grain bullets it is somewhat lower.

Remember, if it's cold and your using IMR4350 loads, the velocity will drop 1.2 fps per degree F. drop so if your loading according to a manual that tests at 59 or 70 degrees, your actual velocity will be a lot lower than the manual says.
You really need to use a chronograph to find out what velocity you are actually shooting.

IMR4451 will drop 0.2 fps per degree F.
Notice that IMR4451 has the best loads for 5 of the 7 bullet weights.

[A&8's]

Looking for a good long range load in 6.5 creedmore.

For now at least, Im not so much interested in squeezing every last bit of accuracy out of reloads, but a good starter load in the 140+ grain range for out to 600+ yards.

In the future I will probably geek out about getting more accuracy but Im wanting something thats as close to plug and play as I can for now.

If possible, I'd like to be able to use the same powders for .308 and down the road 7.5 swiss.

Also, if anyone can recommend brands of dies I'd appreciate that as well. I would not be opposed to using match dies so I don't feel a need to upgrade down the road.

The rifle has a 22 inch barrel with a 1/8 twist.

I have not loaded for 6.5 creedmore before.

Any comments welcome.


My recommendation for dies:

Forester neck bushing die
Sinclair expander mandrel
Redding FL
redding Competition seater

Bullet:
Hornady ELD-M

Brass:
Starline (Note: Starline, Peterson and Lapua all make small primer brass. I use Starline sp in my 6.5)

Primers:
Win SRP

Powder:
H4350

I use 39.6gr of H4350 behind a 140gr Hornady ELD-M, with .015" jump. Now, I'm running a 26" 7 twist, but that should get you close.

[Robinhood]

You can not over emphasize the role that a quality bullet seater plays in accuracy

The SAAMI 6.5 CM chambering is very good and is what is used in most of the barrels, factory or custom. You will find that a high percentage of accurate loads will fall within a few grains of each other in rifles with that chamber. A little research will reveal that one of the accuracy nodes is 42.3gr +or- .2gr H4350 with a 140 class projectile. The 142 SMK provides repeatable 3/4" 4 shot groups at 400 yards with an x caliber barrel. That is less than .2 M.O.A.


The only time I shoot at 100 yrds is for a zero or to check/sight in a scope. I have never got any useful information for a long range cartridge at that range.

[Davo308]

My recommendation for dies:

Forester neck bushing die
Sinclair expander mandrel
Redding FL
redding Competition seater

Bullet:
Hornady ELD-M

Brass:
Starline (Note: Starline, Peterson and Lapua all make small primer brass. I use Starline sp in my 6.5)

Primers:
Win SRP

Powder:
H4350

I use 39.6gr of H4350 behind a 140gr Hornady ELD-M, with .015" jump. Now, I'm running a 26" 7 twist, but that should get you close.

Thanks for this info.

What is the benefit of the small primer brass? More reloads? Better accuracy?

[darkker]

Because of the H4350 is an extreme powder with very low temperature sensitivity,

They are slightly different powders so you can't interchange load data. You have to develop loads separately for each.

Hodgdon only manufactures powder every 6 months so the popular extreme powders like H4350, H4895, and Varget get grabbed up as soon as they become available.

Few things to clarify a bit here

Temperature insensitivity is a specific designed for property, not a universal one. So be careful how far you apply the marketing.... But yes, H4350 is quite stable in the Creed. So is RL-17, and Superformance.

They are separate powders from different manufacturers, and different countries.

Hodgdon doesn't manufacture an ounce of smokeless powder, never have. The "Extreme" series is a Thales powder from the ADI mill in Australia, currently. The Enduron series, and extruded IMR's are General Dynamics powders from the plant in Quebec. The Spherical powders are General Dynamics powders from the St. Marks plant in Florida. Which is why their availability is consistent, no import and freight issues. The reloader is truly the waste market/side gig for the defense contractors who actually make powder.

Cheers

[darkker]

Thanks for this info.

What is the benefit of the small primer brass? More reloads? Better accuracy?

The marketing claim is that there is more consistent ignition, and thus accuracy from the small primer brass; same claim to fame as the PPC line.

When I pressure tested the differences a year or two ago, there just wasn't any statistical difference (except the increased cost for SP Lapua brass). With cool temps, less than max loads, and some older tech powder; there was ignition issues with the small primer loads.

When I get home tonight, I'll try and remember to post the pressure test results.

[Robinhood]

Many people are of the opinion that primer pockets will hold their dimensions for more firings increasing longevity when using hotter loads. It is about economics as much as anything. Truth or fiction? You be the judge.

[darkker]

I take your point, but there is more going on than simply force÷area.

One style of case uses a flat bottom, and the other a balloon head.
There are different alloys and tensile strength specs being used. Federal is a good example of very soft brass for quick obturation, and short case life. Lapua is pretty open about sticking with the original Olin C260 alloy specs, and from some conversations with Emary; Hornady is in that same neighborhood. Meaning tensile strength is spec'd to 70-75,000psi. So if someone is complaining if primer pockets not lasting, they've reached that plastic deformation range (or got some bad brass).
If someone understands this for their hot loads, it's all good. If they think "signs" will keep them safe, that's a dangerous game to play. They can very easily find themselves regularly shooting proof loads, and likely not understand this.

Here is a pic of the brass from the primer testing, they produced identical pressures and velocities. "Signs" tell you that you justed missed your exit, not what pressure your ammo is loaded to.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j84/Darkker13/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20171122_093515-0_zpsref3lyth.jpg

[Robinhood]

The variations in the brass alloy are not as far off as one might think. the C2600 goes by a few names but has a fairly broad tolerance for makeup. I will try to get some better info documented from our NDT guy. My thoughts on the impact on the elasticity may have more or at least some to do with the process of annealing during the manufacturing/drawing process. Depending on when and where the last annealing process took place, one brass may be softer or harder in the pocket web area. Your thoughts?

[darkker]

Annealing certainly plays a big part.
So the question becomes what specs are they following?

So the original Olin alloy C260 had a set of annealing specs coinciding with usage in cartridges. I'm fuzzy on exactly when now, but believe that came about in the early 1930's. It was the gold standard, and what Hatcher used for a bunch of his destructive testing. Olin stopped publishing case specs sometime after the war, think that stopped in the 60's. Talking with Humpy, when he was still testing at the arsenal they still used it in the 5.56 with IIRC 3-4 specs for annealing and hardness at various places on the case. Also held minimums for the case heads.

So does (insert favorite mfgr) simply use the alloy and do their own annealing, or follow the original specs?

Federal shoots for ultra soft cases for hyper obturation (good for accuracy and sealing) which kills case life, and has been known to get a little crazy with the torch. But Avista would prefer you to buy ammo anyway, so not really surprising.

I've got a bunch of 308 cases with well past 30 reloads on them, and no issues. Have a bit of pressure testing, trying to find where "signs" show up. They tend to follow that 70k rage.
I'll do a bit of digging to find a trace.

[CFJunkie]

darker,

Thanks for the information on the various sources of Hodgdon powders.
I knew that some of their powders came from Australia, but not that Hodgdon was the 'Wolf' of powders, just a reseller that does not manufacture anything.
So I guess the correct statement would have been, Hodgdon 'takes delivery of powder shipments to resell every 6 months'.
The powder supply for their extreme powders does run out very quickly after it becomes available, so you have to act fast to get some or wait for the next availability.

I have kept meticulous records with my 6.5mm CMs that shows that there is a slight improvement in accuracy with certain small rifle primers with Lapua brass compared to large rifle primers with Norma and Hornady brass but that not all small rifle primers perform better than a certain LRP.

None of the loads used were 'hot' and were less energetic than factory loads - generally between 2650 and 2675 fps mv.
The variation in overall accuracy was pretty small with the exception of the Federal 205M SRPs.
I didn't bother with shooting lots of those groups because of the drop off in accuracy.

Brass with SRPs is always Lapua.
Brass with LRPs is either Norma or Hornady but the difference in average group size between them is 0.002 so there is statistically no difference.

5 round group data
-----Primer ---- Avg. -- Median -- St Dev -- # Groups
CCI-BR4 SRP - 0.345 -- 0.335 -- 0.085 ----- 535
CCI-400 SRP - 0.378 --- 0.374 -- 0.093 ----- 184
Fed 210M LRP- 0.413 --- 0.391 ---0.125----- 88
Fed 205M SRP- 0.506 --- 0.641 -- 0.150 ---- 14


Over all of the groups shot here, 733 groups with SRPs, I got 26 reloads out of the first 100 Lapua brass and am still working on the second 100 Lapua brass.
I find that with Lapua brass the primer pockets wear out, or at least become looser than I am comfortable reloading, before the necks split.
I didn't bother annealing because I am not having a problem with the necks before the primer pockets get loose.
The Lapua brass is apparently maintaining consist neck tension until the primer pockets loosen, based upon my group size data.
With the 88 groups with Norma brass (50) and Hornady brass (100), the primer pockets wore much more quickly with the Norma brass and I retired the Norma brass.
(I'm not sure why the Norma primer pockets wore so quickly. I don't have that problem with my .308s and I have used Federal 210Ms for more than 10,000 .306 reloads and average about 23-26 reloads with Lapua brass.)
The Hornady brass still hasn't worn out but I put them aside for later use because the Lapua brass with the SRPs was shooting better and I am an accuracy freak.

[Davo308]

darker,

Thanks for the information on the various sources of Hodgdon powders.
I knew that some of their powders came from Australia, but not that Hodgdon was the 'Wolf' of powders, just a reseller that does not manufacture anything.
So I guess the correct statement would have been, Hodgdon 'takes delivery of powder shipments to resell every 6 months'.
The powder supply for their extreme powders does run out very quickly after it becomes available, so you have to act fast to get some or wait for the next availability.

I have kept meticulous records with my 6.5mm CMs that shows that there is a slight improvement in accuracy with certain small rifle primers with Lapua brass compared to large rifle primers with Norma and Hornady brass but that not all small rifle primers perform better than a certain LRP.

None of the loads used were 'hot' and were less energetic than factory loads - generally between 2650 and 2675 fps mv.
The variation in overall accuracy was pretty small with the exception of the Federal 205M SRPs.
I didn't bother with shooting lots of those groups because of the drop off in accuracy.

Brass with SRPs is always Lapua.
Brass with LRPs is either Norma or Hornady but the difference in average group size between them is 0.002 so there is statistically no difference.

5 round group data
-----Primer ---- Avg. -- Median -- St Dev -- # Groups
CCI-BR4 SRP - 0.345 -- 0.335 -- 0.085 ----- 535
CCI-400 SRP - 0.378 --- 0.374 -- 0.093 ----- 184
Fed 210M LRP- 0.413 --- 0.391 ---0.125----- 88
Fed 205M SRP- 0.506 --- 0.641 -- 0.150 ---- 14


Over all of the groups shot here, 733 groups with SRPs, I got 26 reloads out of the first 100 Lapua brass and am still working on the second 100 Lapua brass.
I find that with Lapua brass the primer pockets wear out, or at least become looser than I am comfortable reloading, before the necks split.
I didn't bother annealing because I am not having a problem with the necks before the primer pockets get loose.
The Lapua brass is apparently maintaining consist neck tension until the primer pockets loosen, based upon my group size data.
With the 88 groups with Norma brass (50) and Hornady brass (100), the primer pockets wore much more quickly with the Norma brass and I retired the Norma brass.
(I'm not sure why the Norma primer pockets wore so quickly. I don't have that problem with my .308s and I have used Federal 210Ms for more than 10,000 .306 reloads and average about 23-26 reloads with Lapua brass.)
The Hornady brass still hasn't worn out but I put them aside for later use because the Lapua brass with the SRPs was shooting better and I am an accuracy freak.


Its great that you keep such detailed records.

So in general have you found Lapua to be the sturdiest brass?

I'd be happy with 10 reloads on a piece of brass.

But its remarkable you are getting 30+ with sedate loads.

My barrel is only 22 inches, im hoping I can get a warm load 140's around 2750 fps without murdering the brass.

[Robinhood]

, im hoping I can get a warm load 140's around 2750 fps without murdering the brass.

Let us know ....

[darkker]

Its great that you keep such detailed records.

So in general have you found Lapua to be the sturdiest brass?

I'd be happy with 10 reloads on a piece of brass.

But its remarkable you are getting 30+ with sedate loads.

My barrel is only 22 inches, im hoping I can get a warm load 140's around 2750 fps without murdering the brass.

Don't count on it with 140's, but without caring of pressure you'll get a few loads.
https://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/6-5-creedmoor-effect-of-barrel-length-on-velocity-cutting-up-a-creedmoor/

[Ryfulman]

I’ve got a 260. For 1000 meters or more,the 136 grain lapua projectiles are the best in regards to consistency. And superformance powder will get you the highest possible velocity. It’s a great cartridge.
Stay away from the rdf. Just weren’t consistent enough past 600 meters for me. Very pretty bullet though.