338 lm headspace

[pittbull46]

I have the 110ba 338lm with case head seperation bought a manson 338lm go gauge from brownells bolt would not close sent it to savage said it was ok bolt still doesn't close any help thanks

[tobnpr]

Nothing to help with, here.
If the bolt did not close, with very light resistance at most, on a go-gauge then it ain't "right".
Savage sets headspace the same way we all do- screw in the barrel with a go-gauge in the chamber.

If you did, what you did, correctly- same would have happened at Savage- and the only explanation would be that they never checked it.

I would call the service department and ask for the specific report from the service tech.

Simple matter for a smith to unscrew the barrel and check the gauge protrusion to confirm the chamber was reamed to the correct depth. If it was, then just screw it in and set headspace correctly. If not, back it goes...

How much travel were you able to get on the bolt handle before it locked up? Did you strip the bolthead (though, the bolt should still close, even if you didn't)

[Robinhood]

There is no guarantee the gauge is right. You might try checking to make sure your ejector compresses and remove your extractor then check head space.
If the bolt closes on factory loads you are probably OK.
Are you reloading your brass? If so you might be "over" sizing your brass. If you do reload how do you check your base to shoulder dimension?

[Texas10]

It is possible the go gage was not made correctly. Before sending it back again, beg, borrow, or buy a gage from another reputable manufacturer, and try it. I am no expert but I have a hard time with the idea of a short chamber causing case head separation, so this will be instructional for me, to say the least. Is this factory ammo you're shooting, or hand loads? If hand loads, how are you measuring your shoulder setback during sizing operations, and how many cycles before case failure?

FWIW: I sent a 12FV in 223 back twice for chamber issues, and it was only after a year + of shooting it that I happened to run a set of go, no-go gages through it, just cause I had them out, and find out that the bolt would close on the no-go gage. It shoots fine, with no issues on sizing or brass life. The relationship between the sizing die and the chamber is what's important.

[sharpshooter]

Gauges have tolerance also. Get one from each manufacturer and I'll bet they are all different, but within spec. Savage uses gauges that are made in multiple sets to be exactly alike. Chances that the headspace is wrong from the factory......not bloody likely, they are checked by a minimum of 4 different persons.
Your gauge is either too long, or you didn't have the extractor over the rim when you chambered it. I'm betting it was Hornady brass that separated.

[tobnpr]

Either I did not read the original post correctly, or it was edited to add the element of case head separation- because my answer would have been different.

Points to a short chamber. Don't underestimate what 114 grains of powder can do to an unsupported case extending beyond the chamber.

Still doesn't make sense that it won't close on the go gauge, though. Again, was your bolt stripped?

I've had more than one effed up brand new Savage barrel in my shop (not dissing- I'm a fan- just stating a fact). The downside to a nutted barrel is that a barrel with a chamber reamed to incorrect depth can still be screwed on with a go-gauge and declared "good"- even with a short chamber, including at the factory.

Have a local smith pull the barrel and check gauge protrusion. It's a half-hour job, and he should be able to quickly determine the nature of the issue.

[pittbull46]

Ok sized cases fit ok so thinking it's the gauge need to find another brand

[tobnpr]

^^
If sized cases chamber it could be the gauge, but that would be extremely uncommon.

First time you mentioned that this wasn't with factory ammo.

New brass? If so, you could be bumping the shoulder too far with your sizing die; but again, you shouldn't be able to do this enough to cause a separation unless there's something else going on with the chamber.

Measure the datum length of your sized brass, vs the go-gauge with your comparator.

[Robinhood]

^^ Now you have 3 people who believe that you need to check how much you are bumping your shoulders back. IMHO is that you are jumping over critical steps to identify the issue. Slow down and absorb what is being said. At this point the gauge does not matter. You have identified that the head space is is on the low end of the tolerance. It has been identified that the shorter head space could not cause case head separation. Information that has been given tells you if your brass being sized too short, it will cause case head separation.

A good practice here is to never size brass until you understand the base to shoulder dimension. For this you will need the comparator like tobnpr said.Everyone I know that reloads has one. So should you.

Where should you go from here? This depends on how much brass you have that is already sized. With new brass you should try to chamber each piece, If it fits measure the base to shoulder datum length and record. Load brass and fire(do not size). Measure and record. Back off die 1/2 turn. size and measure. Adjust in small increments until you bump the shoulder .002"-.003" smaller than the fired dimension.

Anything else I would consider barking up the wrong tree. There may be another issue but this you must rule out.

[sharpshooter]

One more thing to add....338 Lapua should have .140" gauge protrusion from the end of the barrel, not .125" like all others. As far as being chambered short from the factory, not bloody likely. When they are chambered they are checked with 5 different gauges.

[Shortbox4x4]

I'm betting it was Hornady brass that separated.

Hmmm....what makes you say that?

Back when the original PSR solicitation was going on (think it was around 2008/2009) I made a barrel and fitted it up to my J series 112V and did a lot of testing in .338 LM for our own knowledge and also did testing for Remington as well.

I ran box RUAG ammo thru my gun, box Lapua ammo and the bulk of my loads and reloads where done on Hornady brass. I had no issues with Hornady brass. Stood up just as good as the Lapua brass. Even over loaded the Hornady brass (not intentionally) and again with no issues.

The RUAG ammo/brass you could not reload. The extractor groove was not a standard size. That’s the one issue I found with LM brass. Hornady brass is made or was made to the original .416 Rigby spec. Lapua is different and RUAG is different. I had to use 2 different shell holders for loading/reloading the ammo.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

[Shortbox4x4]

To add to my post as I thought about it more.....I’ve heard/seen complaints on other forums about hard extraction with Lapua brass also. As well as issues with resizing brass.

I think a lot of it has to do with the chamber work, die settings, type of lube being used on the brass etc...even the loads that I over loaded I had no issues with sizing the brass and loading it again.

[Robinhood]

Brass attempts to flow in the muzzle direction. If the brass is very close to the chamber dimensions in length and diameter, it can only flow to the neck. The reason for case trimmers. If the distance between the base of the case and the shoulder is too short for the chamber(headspace too long or case resized too short) then the case grows in the body area, often just above the web. As this area of the case stretches it gets thinner. eventually beingthe location of separation.

[sharpshooter]

The reason I was leaning towards Hornady brass in my statement is for 2 reasons:

1. Odds are if just bought a 100 BA in .338 LM, the first ammo you bought was Hornady, because it is cheaper and more available.

2. I've dealt with a lot of complaints about these rifles over the years, extraction, ejection and brass issues.....and they all seem to disappear when something other than Hornady ammo and brass is used.

Frank is correct about the cases being different. Below are 4 different cases I sectioned to show the difference in case head construction.
5543

As you can see the Lapua has the thickest case head at .270" thick, while the Hornady is .247". Looking closer you will notice that the Lapua has a bigger radius in the corner compared the smaller radius in the Hornady. The Norma has the thinnest case head, but a much larger radius. Graf has slightly larger radius than the Hornady, but a thinner case head at .237".
If I were to wager which 2 cases were the strongest, it would be Lapua and Norma.......or I could be wrong.

[Shortbox4x4]

The reason I was leaning towards Hornady brass in my statement is for 2 reasons:

1. Odds are if just bought a 100 BA in .338 LM, the first ammo you bought was Hornady, because it is cheaper and more available.

2. I've dealt with a lot of complaints about these rifles over the years, extraction, ejection and brass issues.....and they all seem to disappear when something other than Hornady ammo and brass is used.

Frank is correct about the cases being different. Below are 4 different cases I sectioned to show the difference in case head construction.
5543

As you can see the Lapua has the thickest case head at .270" thick, while the Hornady is .247". Looking closer you will notice that the Lapua has a bigger radius in the corner compared the smaller radius in the Hornady. The Norma has the thinnest case head, but a much larger radius. Graf has slightly larger radius than the Hornady, but a thinner case head at .237".
If I were to wager which 2 cases were the strongest, it would be Lapua and Norma.......or I could be wrong.

That’s a cool picture and information to boot!!!!! Thanks for posting that!

Curious if you checked more than one lot on the Hornady brass as well as the others? Just wondering how consistent the sizes have been from lot to a different lot.

I’ll see if we have a open mill during the week and I can section a Hornady case, and RUAG case so we have more numbers for comparison sake.

There where a lot of grumbling a while ago about the Norma brass not separating but for the lack of a better term stretching to much and to difficult to resize and guys would say it was because it was too soft but I never once seen anyone do a hardness test on any of the cases at all. So how do ya know really?

The other problem I feel is out there and it just doesn’t apply to LM but that resizing dies are not necessarily machinined correctly and will not resize the brass properly.

I’ve had custom dies made by both Hornady as well as Warner Tool. In the case of Warner Tool you send them a once fired case (not sized) and in my case I also sent them my chamber reamer print as well. They will measure your fired case and make you a sizing die/inserts for they’re dies and it will match your chamber. I’ll go on a limb and say Warner’s dies are flat out the nicest out there. I did a decent write up on them on Snipers Hide several years back.

I can look up the link at work and add it to the post here if you guys like?

Later, Frank

[Shortbox4x4]

Here is a link to the review I did on SH on the Warner dies. Go down to post #8.

http://forum.snipershide.com/threads/warner-tool-company-custom-dies.88470/

[Shortbox4x4]

Don't know how to add pic's on this forum?

Sectioned a Hornady case and it measured .237" if I was doing it correctly. The RUAG/Thun Aresenal brass measured .234".

[Robinhood]

From Franks Warner Die Post

The first picture shows what all comes with the die. You have the round handle with dowel pin that fits the lock ring. When you install the die into your press you only hand tighten the lock ring. If you cannot get the lock ring loose to take the die out you insert the dowel pin into the hole in the lock ring.
http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd457/gto66/P1030811.jpg

[Robinhood]

Continuation:

My die came with 5 shims for adjusting the shoulder headspace bump on your cases when reloading. The allen wrench and a neck bushing. I got my die with two different neck bushings for my caliber I'm reloading.



http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd457/gto66/P1030812.jpg

[Robinhood]

Next picture shows the die taken apart. From left to right you have a shim, what I call the shim retainer and three screws, the dies body (actually sizes the body of your cases, neck bushing, main die body and decapping pin assy which this also holds your neck bushing in place.

http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd457/gto66/P1030813.jpg

Next picture shows the die going into the rock chucker press. You have to remove the 7/8 threaded bushing from the press to install the die. The die has 1.250 threads.

Is the die worth the money? Each has to answer that question themselves. As far as I'm concerned it's the nicest die I've ever used.

If you have a custom chamber that nobody makes dies for. Send WTC a fired case and I sent my chamber reamer drawing for reference for them as well. They will make the sizing bushing per your fired case. Again all I can is that it is awesome.

Once you spend the big $ up front you can use the same main die body and just have them make you case sizing bushings for other calibers etc...

They make a die for standard calibers, a die for magnum calibers and die bodys for like .50cal. as well.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels